Joe, Interesting question.
The fundamental axiom of reality is 'Existence exists'. It is impossible for non existence to exist, therefore existence MUST exist and must have always existed. Therefore there was never a nothingness out of which something arose. Therefore there is no need for a creator. Existence exists or to paraphrase Bill. Existence! the single word that establishes its own existence. Existence! This is the fundamental self necessitating axiom of reality upon which all others depend. It's the very bottom turtle. This is what is beyond doubt. Now in terms of Zen and Joe's question applied to us as individuals where does this leave us? First there can be NO doubt at all that we exist period. It is impossible that we even consider the question of our existence and not to exist. That's a no brainer and it's clear Decartes was either an idiot or he meant something different by '...I am" than simple existence. And his 'cogito ergo sum' is tremendously stupid when one thinks about it since thinking does NOT establish existence. It's the other way around. Back to Joe's question as pertains to a realized Zen person. As I've often repeated here realization is simply a matter of realizing realization. Realization is realizing the true nature of things. The true nature of things continually surrounds us 24/7 in the present moment so there is no escaping the true nature of things. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and experiencing them as they are. That means understanding how human biology and cognition transform reality into an internal simulation of the 'real' reality in one's own brain, which when further understood is both the 'real' world and the simulated internal world at the same time in a single reality which is the only true reality accessible to humans. It's a matter of understanding the true nature of illusion so that the reality appears within it. Illusion recognized AS illusion IS reality. Well I had intended to give a simple answer but reality is not simple. Let me try to cut through to the essence by discarding the unessential relative to Descartes. First of all at the most fundamental level there is no 'I am' and there is no 'I think' so those can be discarded. The essence in a nutshell is more like Consciousness! Reality! Enlightenment! Or even better just " " to indicate that what is which is nameless IS.... Thanks for asking the question Joe, Edgar On Nov 22, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Joe wrote: > Group, > > I'm interested in your "pensees". > > Rene Descartes was the French philosopher who published his "Pensees" to > great acclaim; it has been an influential study in Western Philosophy, and > elsewhere, for centuries. > > The book, "Thoughts", or "Meditations" is the record of his attempts to find > what he calls "clear and distinct" ideas. He tried to begin with the most > basic thought, or idea: he looked for what he could absolutely not DOUBT. He > looked, and he looked. Some would say he meditated on it (but not in the Zen > way, probably). This is why the title is almost always translated as > "Meditations" in English. But we know what the translators mean (if we can > remember to the time before we began meditation practice). I think of the > book as "Thoughts", or "Pensees". > > Descartes writes that when he engages in his meditations, he finds that what > he cannot doubt is that he "thinks" (probably many of us do, too, when we > meditate). > > He took it a step further, and deduced that, because he thinks, he exists. > > The "cogito" is the famous proposition he coined: > > "Cogito, ergo sum." > > "I think, therefore I am." > > Now, a question for the group is, how does an awakened person view the cogito? > > Or, what would an awakened person say, instead?, if asked to find something > that he/she could not DOUBT. > > Don't all say "Mu", at once, though. I'll worry it's a stampede. > > And, is there something like the cogito that an awakened person would compose? > > --Joe > >
