RAF and Edgar, Yes, Edgar and I do agree that the Buddhist reference to suffering is mental suffering - not physical pain. You could be suffering because of pain, but then only in the sense that you are hosting a 'pity party' and moaning 'Why me? Why do I have to have this pain? Why not Edgar?'
So, in that sense I wouldn't say 'life is suffering' because it is the ATTACHMENTS in life that cause the suffering, not life itself. I would say 'attachments bring suffering', but they can be dissolved by realization of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Hi RAF, > > One must first clearly define suffering. Bill and I make a distinction > between physical pain and mental suffering. It's mostly mental suffering that > Buddhism addresses in saying that suffering is due to attachments, desires, > and ignorance. Mental suffering can thus largely be released and avoided by > proper understanding or realization in the Buddhist sense. > > But it is incorrect that life IS suffering. Life includes a very complex mix > of experience including suffering, pain, joy, happiness and a lot of other > experiences which are clearly NOT suffering. I'm certainly NOT suffering > right now and I'm most certainly alive. > > But physical pain is an intrinsic part of being a flesh based being. Even the > most enlightened being is still subject to more or less physical pain. But > not to suffering given proper realization. However from an EP perspective > suffering responses are rooted in evolutionary adaptations which is why we > naturally have them and those must be transcended through realization. > > There is a story about a Chinese monk standing completely blissfully in a > group of weeping peasants about to be executed. Seeing the monk the army > commander asked him why he wasn't afraid saying "I could kill you without > batting an eye." In response the monk replied, "And I could be killed by you > without batting an eye." The story goes that the impressed commander then > released him. > > Point of the story is that the stressful anticipation of being executed is > mental suffering which is unnecessary for someone who realizes the true > nature of things. However should the monk be physically harmed he will still > experience physical pain... > > So speaking just about mental suffering there is an enormous amount among > almost all beings human, and animal. However this is fundamentally all > illusion, even though mental suffering is a natural evolutionary response > designed to help mobilize personal resources to resolve stressful or > dangerous situations. > > So yes there are a multitude of suffering beings. That's the reality of > existence. Some of this suffering is best addressed by resolving the causes > of suffering in the everyday world of forms, and some via better realization. > > However EXISTENCE IS NOT SUFFERING even though the existence of many beings > unnecessarily includes a lot of suffering. > > Edgar > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:21 PM, R A Fonda wrote: > > > It happens that 'all is unfolding as it must' has recently been a topic of > > discussion on a secular science forum, (by analogy to the inevitability of > > physical and chemical reactions to proceed according to initial conditions > > and experimental protocols) and it is my contention that the human future > > is not 'open' at all, but essentially ordained as a result of human actions > > in the past and present, albeit 'open', to a conditional degree, in the > > longer term, according to the reactions of humanity to the evolving > > circumstances in that future. > > > > Accordingly, one may well say that the past must be considered in order to > > understand current existence and future possibilities. Still, how is this: > > > > On 11/27/2012 10:18 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > >> horrific depiction of humanity's depravity ... childhood abuse of a New > >> York woman ... The systemic horror of the holocaust or Shoa ... the gifts > >> of law, train schedules, chemistry, and cultural varieties to butcher > >> millions of precious human lives. this chopping of the world into us and > >> them trapped the perpetrators and the Jewish people into gross evil ... > >> divide our glorious reality and hence unleash the brutality that lurks in > >> human brains ... > >> > > which I might call 'counting other people's suffering' different from > > 'counting other people's treasure', in regard to being here and now? There > > is also a personal element > >> I had some history of abuse as a child. > >> > > that personalizes the statement that: > >> to blindly say that it is all ok > > as if (it seems to me) to say, that to believe in 'unfolding as it must' > > denies the sanctity of your suffering and that of the noble martyrs of the > > holocaust, who were all blameless victims, thus implicitly denying that > > there are antecedents to suffering, even though you write: > >> whatever causes it has > >> > > I suggest that 'life is suffering' due to the nature of physical existence, > > if for no other reason than that human competition and exploitation is an > > essential part of evolution, and is likely to remain so in spite of > > (indeed, often because of) efforts to empower governments and institutions > > to 'do good', in contrast to personal charity arising out of karmic > > relations. > > > > It seems to me that if and when we feel compelled to dwell on suffering > > (as, for instance, when it is affecting ourselves and kin) one response > > might be to try to understand the contention that, fundamentally, there ARE > > NO suffering beings. How can that be so, when we are actually experiencing > > the suffering, and the Buddha himself characterized life as suffering? > > > > So, in response to the moderator's request: > > > > > Please ... begin a thread of discussion. < > > > > I ask, who said that, "fundamentally there ARE NO suffering beings" and how > > might that seeming contradiction with "life is suffering" be resolved? > > > > RAF > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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