Suresh, I really enjoy the teaching of Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Krishnamurti, but they are not Zen, so Joe`s statements shouldn`t be held up alongside these teachers. In Zen, enlightenment is a moment to moment experience and it is possible to back-slide as illustrated in the 10 Ox-herding pictures. Even Buddha maintained a daily practice of meditation. Modern neuro-science supports this. The limbic system doesn`t mature with age/experience and it is possible to react like a 2 year old if we aren`t attentive. Saying Ramana Maharishi always abides in self is fine because in Advita vedanta there is always `awareness` (as in Tibetan Dzogchen). But this is still not Zen. If he couldn`t be fully alive to cleaning his teeth or feeding himself, how could it be? Mike
--- On Mon, 7/1/13, SURESH JAGADEESAN <[email protected]> wrote: From: SURESH JAGADEESAN <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Karma is real and free will is illusion. To: [email protected] Date: Monday, 7 January, 2013, 21:30 Dear Joe, I agree to your argument to some extent, but still I have doubts. Joe: In the awakened state, karma and free will are moot, and do not operate. Yet, if we slide backward from the awakened state, and fall into delusion even a bit, karma (our previous conditioning, mind-habits, and the past and future results of these) will again influence us, and we will find that our behavior is not in accord with the Precepts any longer. - One must still practice in order to remain awake. Suresh: Buddha himself states that Siddhartha was died long time back and no one had noticed it. It means in the moment of awakening to Buddhahood, the Siddhartha died, again it means his mind is totally died and never to born. In your statement you state that the awakened one can fall back if he doesn’t practice. If one can fall back means he is not an enlightened one. A Buddha cannot fall back. Ramana Maharishi states that a guru is person who continuously abides in self, no one and no situation can change his state of being one with self. It looks like you are talking about your state; you seem deluded in your misunderstanding of Buddhahood. You are not open. You are glued to zen and feel superior over others in this forum since you have long practice of zen. This long practice itself seems hindrance to be fully awakened as Buddha. It is the problem of following something. J.Krishnamurti states that divine is pathless land. So my dear Joe, please be alert from your zen practice. Joe: But, now, free will is not "real", as karma is not "real". Suresh: Please note free will is not real. But’ karma’ is real. Karma is real as long as you consider yourself as body. Even if you see yourself as pure consciousness / self / Buddhahood, the body born to be you will follow karma until its destruction. Hence Buddha also not exempted from karma. And hence once in Buddha life, a person came and spitted on his face. This action to his body, he himself states that it is due to his past karma. So even a Buddha is not spared from karma. So Karma is real. Since Karma is real, there is no ‘free will’. All our actions are influenced, if you consciously watch your actions you will know. As long as you are influenced by any force you are not a Buddha. Not even the urge of brushing your teeth. Ramana Maharishi sat motionless for nearly 1.5 years. He was shifted by people surrounded and people who were wondering about him. He will not even take food kept in front of him, someone had to pour some milk in his mouth by force. It was by his devotees’ effort he lived up to 72 years. But himself he did not desired to continue his bodily life. Again even in Ramana’s life there were incidents of thieves attacking him, but again it is due to Karma, so even Sri.Ramana is not spared from Karma. So Karma is real and free will is illusion. Best wishes Suresh -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
