Hey Bill, You probably don't remember me. My name is Scott. I talked with you a bit last summer while I was in Koh Tao and BKK. I'm the American who lives in Chongqing. Anyway, I've been away from this group since then cuz got super busy with business after last summer. Anyway, I've gotta get away from here again, and am heading to Burma for 10 days, starting April 1st. Have you ever gotten a chance to get over there? Scott (Bummy)
--- In [email protected], "Bill!" wrote: > > *** Corrected and Re-Posted *** > > Scott, > > Okay, because sometimes we do have some discussions on some pretty weird > topics here. We usually just let them go on until they run their own course. > > You bring up a good point though. > > IMO... > > The dualistic set of 'good:bad' fall within the province of philosophy > (ethics)or religions (morality). Buddhism labels things as 'good' and 'bad', > or at least 'right' and 'wrong'. One of the core teachings of Buddhism is the > Nobel Eightfold Path which lists out eight areas in which you are to > concentrate your practice: 'Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, > etc...'. This obviously implies there are 'wrong views', 'wrong intentions', > 'wrong speech', etc... This approach is not however the teaching of zen when > the core of zen is freed from the religion of Buddhism. > > Zen teaches you to develop an awareness of 'Buddha Nature'. That's been > described as a lot of different things, but I think I'm safe in describing it > in part as a 'holistic state of awareness'. The key term here is 'holistic', > and it needs to be understood in contrast with 'dualistic'. 'Holistic' > implies the universe/reality is One. Dualism implies there are many separate > things. I (and many zen writings) call these separate things 'illusion'. > Illusions not only apply to what we perceive as separate physical things but > also to what we conceptualize as categories, valuations and judgement. > > So, you're correct that from a holistic perspective (what I guess could be > called a 'zen perspective') there is no 'good' and 'bad'. There is Just THIS! > And Just THIS! is neither good nor bad. > > The problem though is when you interpret this to imply that anything you > view, intend, speak, etc..., should go unchallenged because there is no > 'good' or 'bad'. If indeed you are viewing, intending, speaking, etc..., > while Buddha Nature is manifest (a non-dualistic state) then yes, your view > is a holistic view, intention a holistic intention, speech a holistic speech, > etc..., and will be pure and not conceptualized as good or bad. But if you > still have a trace of dualism, of self (the result of the dualistic set > self:other) then your dualistic views, intentions, speech, etc..., are > certainly subject to the dualistic conceptualizations of good and bad. > > Again, all this is just IMO. I'm sure others on this forum will have other > opinions, some of which may be contradictory to mine. But that's how I see it. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], Scott Williams wrote: > > > > Hi Bill,Actually my writing was a little screwed up. I didn't actually mean > > that it has no place in a zen discussion, but I meant that because of the > > way in which everything thing comes into being, can there actually be > > anything considered good/bad? That's just feeding into duality. Didnt mean > > there's anything wrong with any discussion.Cheers.Scott > > > > --- On Thu, 31/1/13, Bill! wrote: > > > > From: Bill! > > Subject: [Zen] Re: war criminals > > To: [email protected] > > Received: Thursday, 31 January, 2013, 4:37 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bummy, > > > > > > > > We are very lax here on allowing most any topic to be discussed. We have > > two moderators, Edgar and me, who would jointly make the decision if a > > discussion topic, discussion direction or a particular member became > > objectionable to the point that we agreed we needed to stop it. > > > > > > > > I disagree with your statement below that because we aspire to 'follow the > > Tao - the Way' we have no responsibility. We have the responsibility to > > assure that we are following the Tao and not some ego-centric, > > self-centered attachment that we have deceived ourselves into believing is > > the 'Way'. > > > > > > > > That is our practice. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bummy McNeedy" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no reason why the term war criminal has any validity in a zen > > > discussion group. Being that there is only a stream of thought and action > > > pouring through one and/or all, then there is no responsibility. > > > Everything is, as it should be. Also: grieve not for the alive nor the > > > dead.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "iain" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might find the research paper below interesting Suresh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Already several seconds before we consciously make a decision its > > > > outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain. This > > > > is shown in a study by scientists from the Max Planck Institute for > > > > Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, in collaboration with > > > > the Charité University Hospital and the Bernstein Center for > > > > Computational Neuroscience in Berlin. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mpg.de/567905/pressRelease20080414 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note yesterday it was revealed to me that, the form (any form) > > > > > > > is bound by action and reaction. Formless(space) is free. Just take > > > > > > > example of heavenly bodies they are bound by a law which was > > > > > > > discovered by Newton. That is all bodies move in a straight direction > > > > > > > unless or until it was intervene by other object. Since there are > > > > > > > innumerable bodies, they bound to come across close to other body when > > > > > > > their nature of being moving in one direction. So there bound to be > > > > > > > interaction between bodies, and the result will be as per law of > > > > > > > forces. Suppose on a moving body which is moving in the direction of > > > > > > > east I apply one force from north direction, it will move south east. > > > > > > > If I apply force from two different directions, then it will move in > > > > > > > resultant direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose I apply force in multiple directions which way the body will > > > > > > > move? Definitely it will move resultant of all force directions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same rule applicable to human bodies also. Even in the discussions > > > > > > > in this forum, please note for example Merle will be having certain > > > > > > > view on life and she is moving in that direction, then Joe comes and > > > > > > > tells her something and then Mike tells something, then I come and > > > > > > > tell something. Then certainly some changes happen in Merle. Her mind > > > > > > > will be thinking resultant of all these discussion forces. Then her > > > > > > > body reacts based on her mental thinking, similarly with everyone. So > > > > > > > Mind is a field in which all these forces take place and body is just > > > > > > > obedient servant of mind will follow what mind says. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind actions are based on various forces acted upon it. But for those > > > > > > > force who is responsible? Why I should join this forum? And discuss > > > > > > > like this with you, so that your thinking changes. It means in me some > > > > > > > one applied some force so I joined this forum. So my actions are not > > > > > > > mine alone, it is the resultant of all forces (influences) of the > > > > > > > environment in which this body is in. I am a life energy having taken > > > > > > > this body, which is again due to past actions moving in an environment > > > > > > > subjected to all kind of forces some actions are performed by this > > > > > > > body, which again influences some other body-mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So in your argument you state War Criminals, whom are you > > > > > > > representing, the one who initiated the war or one who perform war? > > > > > > > The one who initiated also bound by forces of environment just like > > > > > > > you. Your environment was different, and hence you follow zen and be > > > > > > > peaceful, their environment was different and hence they initiated the > > > > > > > war. They know not what they are doing (Jesus). Similarly the one who > > > > > > > perform war are bound by environment. The performer is really innocent > > > > > > > he was doing his duties as ordered by his seniors/boss. Hence > > > > > > > performer don't have guilty and live happily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So there are no individual actions. All actions are resultant of > > > > > > > forces. And you are the field of awareness in which all action takes > > > > > > > place, which you can only see. It is like watching movie and feels > > > > > > > like hero or heroine and enjoys or suffers as like them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact you are an observer and no such actions of hero or heroine > > > > > > > bound by you, but still you suffer or enjoy. Can you change the scenes > > > > > > > of a movie? NO. It was already directed by somebody. It is the same, > > > > > > > this whole cosmic is directed by someone, you are only to watch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In truth the watcher is the director and he only created all these > > > > > > > objects. That realization comes later once you know you are pure > > > > > > > consciousness and not this body, which you possess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > Suresh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Thanks and best regards > > > > > > > J.Suresh > > > > > > > New No.3, Old No.7, > > > > > > > Chamiers road - 1st Lane, > > > > > > > Alwarpet, > > > > > > > Chennai - 600018 > > > > > > > Ph: 044 42030947 > > > > > > > Mobile: 91 9884071738 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
