too much thinking will destroy zen.!..... focus on the moment and the breath!..merle
Thank you, Carl! That's valuable info for me. Thanks very much for those references. --Joe PS I think you're right about the origins of Zen. Histories generally emphasize the development of its practices and culture in China, and then how it was partly preserved as received in Japan, and partly developed further, there. Ch'an and Zen practitioners who are also scholars and philosophers point out the relevance of Yogacara and Madhyamika philosophy to the nature of Zen and Zen understanding, and if we study those schools' writings, we can see this very clearly ourselves. I really enjoy the oppositeness of Yogacara and Madhyamika's points of view, and starting points, nonetheless letting them shed much light on, or give much support to, a Zen understanding. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Zen "needs" this, but I appreciate what Yogacara and Madhyamika do for that part of our mind, or brain, which at certain times really likes that sort of icing on the cake. A constant diet of sugar is not good, though, but a nibble from time to time is good when that part of the mind yearns for a little something to digest, or for some iron to pump. The philosophical systems did not spring from whole cloth, but were brought out by by the experience and thought of great practitioners, and if we are practitioners ourselves we can see the warp and woof of it, and usually see just where each element comes from naturally; it's like our eyebrows enmeshing with those of the ancestors when we pass through koans. Tnx again, --J. > "Carl" wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote: > > > > ...and, Carl, > > > > Heterodoxy is fine by me, too. Have at it if that is your ken. > > > > I only write about Zen as I know it, which is Zen as it is practiced, and > > realized. > > > > I'm a practitioner. You too? > > > > Mostly, I speak about practice and its upshot, and not much about theory. > > But I'm game for theory, anytime. I know that Madhyamika and Yogacara > > inform Zen philosophy, to the extent that there is any. Ch'an and Zen is > > not the Teaching School, as you know. > > > I don't personally believe Zens origins have much to do with Buddhism, as far > as I know it originated later and outside India. So my inclination would be > to look at actual roots, not later adaptations. > An atheist materialist can be a Buddhist as well. > > > But I'm off topic in this thread, about that. Just a heads-up. > > > > They say it doesn't take just one to ruin a forum topic's flow, it takes > > two. There are 400 here who may also be as interested in your info as I am. > > > > Don't -- Please don't -- take an easy-out, and clam-up about the > > 'Illuminati'. I use the inverted commas until you substantiate something. > > > I don't believe anything can substitute personal experience. But for what > it's worth I believe they have written some books in something of a > recruitment drive, the numerous ones by William Walker Atkinson in the main > deal with techniques for mental domination for personal gain. Alice Bailey > also mentions a mind control technique called "overshadowing" in her books, > and has written something about their agenda in "Externalization of the > Hierarchy". Benjamin Creme is one of their spokespersons today. I still > believe you are hostile to the subject (as it dos not fit your view of Zen, > and general prejudice), so I am disclined to discuss this further.
