Bill!, I'm happy to drop it if you want, but I think we're kind of saying the same thing, but differently (if that makes sense?). The only thing I'd disagree with you tho is that conditions are not just a human thing. It's found in nature too. That's why mangoes don't grow n the Sahara and mice don't hunt cats.
Mike --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > This whole dialog is getting over my head and is taking me to a place I > really don't want to go - and that is talking ABOUT zen and Buddha Nature and > trying to EXPLAIN them rather than just describing experience. > > That being said, my take on this is that you can embrace (form attachments) > to illusions such as identifying with living in Thailand or seeing your loved > ones as independent selves or believing everything is subject to > cause-and-effect and is independently conditioned. That's a very human thing > to do. All zen (and as best as I can understand Buddhist dogma) says about > this is IF YOU DO you are subject to suffering. > > If you don't mind the suffering or believe the upside is at least as pleasant > as the downside is painful then go for it. > > But this IMO is not zen. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > I think it was Gary Snyder who wrote (and I paraphrase badly): > > > > 'A farmer holding a turnip pointing the Way'. > > > > Don't you see that? We know that a turnip, Thailand, 'I', the ones we > > love, are illusory - in the sense that they're not separate, independent > > objects with an enduring 'self', but why Is it illusory to see them as > > independent selves? Because we know they're interdependently conditioned. > > Take that away and you'd have the absurdity of a peach tree growing on the > > moon and Merle suddenly waking up tomorrow as a Mongolian. > > > > Not all conditions are made by us. Why were you born in the US? There are > > conitions that predate you (n fact, they ultimately go back to the Big > > Bang). And when I say 'you' we can make it that bundle of DNA if you like. > > Try as you might, you (as Bill) can't escape the fact that cause and effect > > define who you are and why you are while you live in Samsara. Better to be > > a human in this lifetime with the potential of Buddhahood, than to be a fox > > for the next 500 lifetimes! ; ) > > > > Mike > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > IMO > > > > > > Form (things/phenomena) don't point to a truth. Truth is only > > > experienced. Truth is Buddha Nature. Truth is absolute. > > > > > > A `relative' truth would be YOUR truth, or MY truth. That's no longer > > > `form' but `content'. I call all content illusory because each of us > > > create us ourselves (relatively). It might mean a lot to you (be true) > > > but could be meaningless to me (not be true). > > > > > > I'm not concerned with teaching guides. Nothing I or anyone could teach > > > you about experience of Buddha Nature would be of value anyway. You've > > > got to experience yourself. That doesn't mean you have to then go on and > > > fill-in all form with content for yourself, although you and I do indeed > > > do that, I'm certain. That means you have to recognize the form as > > > empty, and the content you've created as illusory. The only way I know > > > how to do that is zazen. > > > > > > The self is illusory, and so is the distinction between `you' and `those' > > > you love or hate. > > > > > > There are conditions but I MAKE THEM. They are illusory. The `I' that > > > woke up this morning is an illusory `I'. The distinction that `Thailand' > > > is a unique place separate from other places is illusory. I MAKE THOSE > > > conditions with my human intellect. > > > > > > The is no `Law' except the one we make with our intellect. > > > > > > My point is none of these things/phenomena/truths/conditions are bad > > > things, nor are they even necessarily detrimental to or obscure the > > > manifestation of Buddha Nature. You can see through these if you do not > > > become deceived and believe they have substance (content) and are not > > > just what they are empty forms. When you start believing they are real > > > (relatively) you are prone to form ATTACHMENTS that can that then can > > > obscure Buddha Nature. > > > > > > That's the best I can do to explain my UNDERSTANING of the experience of > > > Buddha Nature and of illusions. > > > > > > Bill! > > > > > > > > > From: uerusuboyo@ <uerusuboyo@>; > > > To: BillSmart@ <BillSmart@>; > > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Cause-and-Effect > > > Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:47:56 AM > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > Of course, the labels we use to name things/phenomena are meaningless by > > > themselves, but they point to a truth. A relative truth (such as 'self'), > > > but a truth none-the-less. To just say everything is "illusory" means > > > very little and does even less as a teaching guide. This is what Buddha > > > was getting at. He never denied a self as just being illusory - I'm very > > > much real and so are the people I love - but he recognised that it is a > > > self created by conditions (if there are no conditions, then how come you > > > didn't wake up as a Chinese man this morning? How did you come to live in > > > Thailand?) and that these conditions influence our thoughts/actions > > > leading to further conditions etc etc. A simple contemplation of your > > > life thus far would quickly bear witness to this Law. Oh, I forgot! > > > "your" and "life" are concepts, and therefore illusory, so.... what was > > > your point again? ; ) > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
