Mike, There's no need for you to drop a dialog that interests you. I'm a big boy so if there comes a time when I don't want to participate anymore I'll stop.
I'm not really clear on just exactly what you're referring to as 'conditions' or 'independently conditioned'. Maybe if you'd explain what that means to you it would help. What I've been assuming so far is that it refers to the rational structure that I believe we create and superimpose on our experiences, and that you believe is actually 'out there somewhere' and that we discover or learn about. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > I'm happy to drop it if you want, but I think we're kind of saying the same > thing, but differently (if that makes sense?). The only thing I'd disagree > with you tho is that conditions are not just a human thing. It's found in > nature too. That's why mangoes don't grow n the Sahara and mice don't hunt > cats. > > Mike > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > This whole dialog is getting over my head and is taking me to a place I > > really don't want to go - and that is talking ABOUT zen and Buddha Nature > > and trying to EXPLAIN them rather than just describing experience. > > > > That being said, my take on this is that you can embrace (form attachments) > > to illusions such as identifying with living in Thailand or seeing your > > loved ones as independent selves or believing everything is subject to > > cause-and-effect and is independently conditioned. That's a very human > > thing to do. All zen (and as best as I can understand Buddhist dogma) says > > about this is IF YOU DO you are subject to suffering. > > > > If you don't mind the suffering or believe the upside is at least as > > pleasant as the downside is painful then go for it. > > > > But this IMO is not zen. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > I think it was Gary Snyder who wrote (and I paraphrase badly): > > > > > > 'A farmer holding a turnip pointing the Way'. > > > > > > Don't you see that? We know that a turnip, Thailand, 'I', the ones we > > > love, are illusory - in the sense that they're not separate, independent > > > objects with an enduring 'self', but why Is it illusory to see them as > > > independent selves? Because we know they're interdependently conditioned. > > > Take that away and you'd have the absurdity of a peach tree growing on > > > the moon and Merle suddenly waking up tomorrow as a Mongolian. > > > > > > Not all conditions are made by us. Why were you born in the US? There are > > > conitions that predate you (n fact, they ultimately go back to the Big > > > Bang). And when I say 'you' we can make it that bundle of DNA if you > > > like. Try as you might, you (as Bill) can't escape the fact that cause > > > and effect define who you are and why you are while you live in Samsara. > > > Better to be a human in this lifetime with the potential of Buddhahood, > > > than to be a fox for the next 500 lifetimes! ; ) > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > IMO > > > > > > > > Form (things/phenomena) don't point to a truth. Truth is only > > > > experienced. Truth is Buddha Nature. Truth is absolute. > > > > > > > > A `relative' truth would be YOUR truth, or MY truth. That's no longer > > > > `form' but `content'. I call all content illusory because each of us > > > > create us ourselves (relatively). It might mean a lot to you (be true) > > > > but could be meaningless to me (not be true). > > > > > > > > I'm not concerned with teaching guides. Nothing I or anyone could > > > > teach you about experience of Buddha Nature would be of value anyway. > > > > You've got to experience yourself. That doesn't mean you have to then > > > > go on and fill-in all form with content for yourself, although you and > > > > I do indeed do that, I'm certain. That means you have to recognize the > > > > form as empty, and the content you've created as illusory. The only > > > > way I know how to do that is zazen. > > > > > > > > The self is illusory, and so is the distinction between `you' and > > > > `those' you love or hate. > > > > > > > > There are conditions but I MAKE THEM. They are illusory. The `I' that > > > > woke up this morning is an illusory `I'. The distinction that > > > > `Thailand' is a unique place separate from other places is illusory. I > > > > MAKE THOSE conditions with my human intellect. > > > > > > > > The is no `Law' except the one we make with our intellect. > > > > > > > > My point is none of these things/phenomena/truths/conditions are bad > > > > things, nor are they even necessarily detrimental to or obscure the > > > > manifestation of Buddha Nature. You can see through these if you do > > > > not become deceived and believe they have substance (content) and are > > > > not just what they are empty forms. When you start believing they > > > > are real (relatively) you are prone to form ATTACHMENTS that can that > > > > then can obscure Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > That's the best I can do to explain my UNDERSTANING of the experience > > > > of Buddha Nature and of illusions. > > > > > > > > Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > From: uerusuboyo@ <uerusuboyo@>; > > > > To: BillSmart@ <BillSmart@>; > > > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Cause-and-Effect > > > > Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:47:56 AM > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > Of course, the labels we use to name things/phenomena are meaningless > > > > by themselves, but they point to a truth. A relative truth (such as > > > > 'self'), but a truth none-the-less. To just say everything is > > > > "illusory" means very little and does even less as a teaching guide. > > > > This is what Buddha was getting at. He never denied a self as just > > > > being illusory - I'm very much real and so are the people I love - but > > > > he recognised that it is a self created by conditions (if there are no > > > > conditions, then how come you didn't wake up as a Chinese man this > > > > morning? How did you come to live in Thailand?) and that these > > > > conditions influence our thoughts/actions leading to further conditions > > > > etc etc. A simple contemplation of your life thus far would quickly > > > > bear witness to this Law. Oh, I forgot! "your" and "life" are concepts, > > > > and therefore illusory, so.... what was your point again? ; ) > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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