Mike, Bill doesn't believe in a nature or natural law. In his deluded mind these are delusional products OF HIS MIND.
Bill is a solipsist but solipsism is NOT zen..... Edgar On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:02 AM, mike wrote: > Bill!, > > I'm happy to drop it if you want, but I think we're kind of saying the same > thing, but differently (if that makes sense?). The only thing I'd disagree > with you tho is that conditions are not just a human thing. It's found in > nature too. That's why mangoes don't grow n the Sahara and mice don't hunt > cats. > > Mike > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > This whole dialog is getting over my head and is taking me to a place I > > really don't want to go - and that is talking ABOUT zen and Buddha Nature > > and trying to EXPLAIN them rather than just describing experience. > > > > That being said, my take on this is that you can embrace (form attachments) > > to illusions such as identifying with living in Thailand or seeing your > > loved ones as independent selves or believing everything is subject to > > cause-and-effect and is independently conditioned. That's a very human > > thing to do. All zen (and as best as I can understand Buddhist dogma) says > > about this is IF YOU DO you are subject to suffering. > > > > If you don't mind the suffering or believe the upside is at least as > > pleasant as the downside is painful then go for it. > > > > But this IMO is not zen. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > I think it was Gary Snyder who wrote (and I paraphrase badly): > > > > > > 'A farmer holding a turnip pointing the Way'. > > > > > > Don't you see that? We know that a turnip, Thailand, 'I', the ones we > > > love, are illusory - in the sense that they're not separate, independent > > > objects with an enduring 'self', but why Is it illusory to see them as > > > independent selves? Because we know they're interdependently conditioned. > > > Take that away and you'd have the absurdity of a peach tree growing on > > > the moon and Merle suddenly waking up tomorrow as a Mongolian. > > > > > > Not all conditions are made by us. Why were you born in the US? There are > > > conitions that predate you (n fact, they ultimately go back to the Big > > > Bang). And when I say 'you' we can make it that bundle of DNA if you > > > like. Try as you might, you (as Bill) can't escape the fact that cause > > > and effect define who you are and why you are while you live in Samsara. > > > Better to be a human in this lifetime with the potential of Buddhahood, > > > than to be a fox for the next 500 lifetimes! ; ) > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > IMO… > > > > > > > > Form (things/phenomena) don't point to a truth. Truth is only > > > > experienced. Truth is Buddha Nature. Truth is absolute. > > > > > > > > A `relative' truth would be YOUR truth, or MY truth. That's no longer > > > > `form' but `content'. I call all content illusory because each of us > > > > create us ourselves (relatively). It might mean a lot to you (be true) > > > > but could be meaningless to me (not be true). > > > > > > > > I'm not concerned with teaching guides. Nothing I or anyone could teach > > > > you about experience of Buddha Nature would be of value anyway. You've > > > > got to experience yourself. That doesn't mean you have to then go on > > > > and fill-in all form with content for yourself, although you and I do > > > > indeed do that, I'm certain. That means you have to recognize the form > > > > as empty, and the content you've created as illusory. The only way I > > > > know how to do that is zazen. > > > > > > > > The self is illusory, and so is the distinction between `you' and > > > > `those' you love or hate. > > > > > > > > There are conditions but I MAKE THEM. They are illusory. The `I' that > > > > woke up this morning is an illusory `I'. The distinction that > > > > `Thailand' is a unique place separate from other places is illusory. I > > > > MAKE THOSE conditions with my human intellect. > > > > > > > > The is no `Law' except the one we make with our intellect. > > > > > > > > My point is…none of these things/phenomena/truths/conditions are bad > > > > things, nor are they even necessarily detrimental to or obscure the > > > > manifestation of Buddha Nature. You can see through these if you do not > > > > become deceived and believe they have substance (content) and are not > > > > just what they are – empty forms. When you start believing they are > > > > real (relatively) you are prone to form ATTACHMENTS that can that then > > > > can obscure Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > That's the best I can do to explain my UNDERSTANING of the experience > > > > of Buddha Nature and of illusions. > > > > > > > > …Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > From: uerusuboyo@ <uerusuboyo@>; > > > > To: BillSmart@ <BillSmart@>; > > > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Cause-and-Effect > > > > Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:47:56 AM > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > Of course, the labels we use to name things/phenomena are meaningless > > > > by themselves, but they point to a truth. A relative truth (such as > > > > 'self'), but a truth none-the-less. To just say everything is > > > > "illusory" means very little and does even less as a teaching guide. > > > > This is what Buddha was getting at. He never denied a self as just > > > > being illusory - I'm very much real and so are the people I love - but > > > > he recognised that it is a self created by conditions (if there are no > > > > conditions, then how come you didn't wake up as a Chinese man this > > > > morning? How did you come to live in Thailand?) and that these > > > > conditions influence our thoughts/actions leading to further conditions > > > > etc etc. A simple contemplation of your life thus far would quickly > > > > bear witness to this Law. Oh, I forgot! "your" and "life" are concepts, > > > > and therefore illusory, so.... what was your point again? ; ) > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > >
