Edgar, That's called zen practice...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > Exactly! Bill denies most of reality all the while successfully living within > that rational part of reality... > > Isn't that called multiple personality disorder? > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:56 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > From: uerusuboyo@... <uerusuboyo@...>; > > To: BillSmart@... <BillSmart@...>; > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 1:54:31 AM > > > > Bill!, > > > > How the hell do you survive crossing those busy Thai roads if you dismiss > > the relative as just illusion? In fact, why even bother? You need enough > > ego to cross the road safely as well as perform other responsibilities you > > may have. Simply saying everything is "illusion!" or "dualistic" is > > dismissive to the point of absurdity. > > > > "Speeding? Sorry officer, but speed is an illusion. She's dead, you say? > > Death is illusory. And 'she' is just creating a dualism. And you know that > > dualisms are illusory. Ouch! No problem - the 'pain' from that taser is > > just illusory". > > > > > > > > > > > > is There are not two sides of the coin. There are not two sides of the > > coin. There is only one. What you perceive as the 'other side' is a > > dualistic - an illusion. > > > > The illusion of 'being human' and believing that to be 'special' or > > 'unique' is no different from the illusion of self. Both these illusions > > (all illusions really) only server to create an illusory distinction from > > what you then perceive attachment fades enough I then do remember that this > > is all illusion; and yes it does ameliorate the immediate suffering and > > eventually dissolves it entirely. > > > > I would certainly comfort someone who is suffering. I would try to assure > > them that things will get better. BUT, even in their time of greatest > > sorrow if they asked me IN ALL EARNESTNESS (as is the litany in most koans) > > how to alleviate the suffering I would tell them the truth. Suffering is > > caused by attachment to illusions. I would actually not just tell them this > > but would suggest they sit (zazen) because just telling someone something > > is not really effective. They must experience it for themselves. I > > personally don't believe misleading someone is helpful to bring them to > > this experience. > > > > I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may > > serve to reinforce your illusion of compassion, but in practice falls > > woefully short. > > > > The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay > > between absolutism and relativism. The warning however was not just about > > absolutism, it included relativism also. attaching to illusion and when the > > attachment fades enough I then do remember that this is all illusion; and > > yes it does ameliorate the immediate suffering and eventually dissolves it > > entirely. > > > > I would certainly comfort someone who is suffering. I would try to assure > > them that things will get better. BUT, even in their time of greatest > > sorrow if they asked me IN ALL EARNESTNESS (as is the litany in most koans) > > how to alleviate the suffering I would tell them the truth. Suffering is > > caused by attachment to illusions. I would actually not just tell them this > > but would suggest they sit (zazen) because just telling someone something > > is not really effective. They must experience it for themselves. I > > personally don't believe misleading someone is helpful to bring them to > > this experience. > > > > I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may > > serve to reinforce your illusion of compassion, but in practice falls > > woefully short. > > > > The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay > > between absolutism and relativism. The warning however was not just about > > absolutism, it included relativism also. > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>; > > To: <[email protected]>; > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Hello > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 12:32:26 AM > > > > > > Mike, > > > > There are not two sides of the coin. There is only one. What you perceive > > as the 'other side' is a dualistic - an illusion. > > > > The illusion of 'being human' and believing that to be 'special' or > > 'unique' is no different from the illusion of self. Both these illusions > > (all illusions really) only server to create an illusory distinction from > > what you then perceive is 'everything else'. Duality is this two-sided coin > > you have created. > > > > Of course I suffer. I do so because I get sucked into (attach) to illusion > > the same as everyone else. Even after attaching to illusion and when the > > attachment fades enough I then do remember that this is all illusion; and > > yes it does ameliorate the immediate suffering and eventually dissolves it > > entirely. > > > > I would certainly comfort someone who is suffering. I would try to assure > > them that things will get better. BUT, even in their time of greatest > > sorrow if they asked me IN ALL EARNESTNESS (as is the litany in most koans) > > how to alleviate the suffering I would tell them the truth. Suffering is > > caused by attachment to illusions. I would actually not just tell them this > > but would suggest they sit (zazen) because just telling someone something > > is not really effective. They must experience it for themselves. I > > personally don't believe misleading someone is helpful to bring them to > > this experience. > > > > I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may > > serve to reinforce your illusion of compassion, but in practice falls > > woefully short. > > > > The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay > > between absolutism and relativism. The warning however was not just about > > absolutism, it included relativism also. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As I see it, you are correct but only from one side of > > > the coin (the Absolute). But this denies what it is to be human. We also > > > operate from the relative, even those of us who are awake to the illusion > > > of a self. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't suffer in the event of > > > a personal tragedy involving a loved one (God forbid)? Does knowing that > > > suffering is an illusion do anything other than slightly ameliorate the > > > suffering (by not wallowing in the hurt, perhaps)? Imagine saying to a > > > mother who has list a child that the suffering she feels is an just an > > > illusion. Is that compassionate, even though it is true in the absolute > > > sense? That pain is very much "real" because it *is* experienced in the > > > relative. Time and again Zen masters have warned against operating from > > > the absolute only (Hyakujo's Fox). I sometimes feel you display a kind of > > > unbalanced, macho realist/absolutism that misses the mark of what > > > Compassion truly is. > > > <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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