Mike, The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat". Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate cause-and-effect.
Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to jump to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for 500 lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was POSITIVE karma. Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 lifetimes as a fox) was dismissed as soon as the old man heard the turning words. These words broke the chain of cause-and-effect. I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but it is doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of causation (the chain of cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, and two because 'morality' is just another one of those two-sided coins with 'moral' on one side and 'immoral' on the other. In other words is a dualistic concept which makes it illusory. Dogen didn't really use this term,did he? You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO AND THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously not so because the turning word removed them. For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them he is not enlightened. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of illusions and > that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms of the relative (I've > never claimed anything as not being illusory, just that to do so is not > practical to live a human life). For example, in Zen the saying is 'When > hungry we eat' (how's that for cause and effect!). It doesn't say 'When > hungry - just dismiss hunger as illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of the last > part of the koan is just that karma is not fixed (determined) and can be > changed. Even the negative karma of living as a fox for 500 lifetimes was > eventually extinguished (it could even be argued that 500 lifetimes was > necessary before the old man could become enlightened, therefore making it > positive karma if that is what was required for his enlightenment). > <br/><br/>I cut this from angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in this passage > refers to "moral causation." The Buddhist concept of Karma acknowledges that > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad effects. Thus the > import of the question posed by the "fox" is whether or not the Enlightened > person is subject to Karma. Hyakujo's answer, in effect, affirms that the > Enlightened person is subject to moral causation. Katsuki Sekida offers a > common Zen interpretation of this passage in his comment: "Thus to ignore > causation only compounds one's malady. To recognize causation constitutes the > remedy for it." See Karma and Free Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's employment of > this story in the "Daishugyo" chapter of the Shobogenzo implies that, on one > level, he thinks Hyakujo's answer indeed provides a "remedy" for the old > man's predicament. Yet Dogen was rarely content with merely citing > traditional Zen interpretations of passages; typically, he sought to push his > students to a further understanding by a creative reinterpretation of a > passage. Lest his disciple therefore think this > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from it in an > ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means "cause and effect are > immovable." In other words, moral causation, for Dogen, is an inexorable fact > of human existence."<br/><br/>For me then (this is Mike speaking!), the > enlightened person is still subject to cause and effect, but is not fooled by > it. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
