Mike, I think you may have a bug in yours! :-)
Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Edgar, > > Are these your imaginary stages like your imaginary computer program > analogies? > > Mike > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Hello > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 2:28:03 PM > > > Bill, > > > If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2? >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> > >> > Bill, >> > >> > Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus >> > generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness is >> > real.... >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > >> > > Edgar, >> > > >> > > Is this part of Stage 3? >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Bill, >> > > > >> > > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? >> > > > >> > > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and >> > > > effect or not! >> > > > >> > > > Jeeeez! >> > > > >> > > > Edgar >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Mike, >> > > > > >> > > > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and >> > > > > effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we >> > > > > eat". Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to >> > > > > describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate >> > > > > cause-and-effect. >> > > > > >> > > > > Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to >> > > > > jump to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for >> > > > > 500 lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was >> > > > > POSITIVE karma. Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 >> > > > > lifetimes as a fox) was dismissed as soon as the old man heard the >> > > > > turning words. These words broke the chain of cause-and-effect. >> > > > > >> > > > > I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but >> > > > > it is doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of >> > > > > causation (the chain of cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, >> > > > > and two because 'morality' is just another one of those two-sided >> > > > > coins with 'moral' on one side and 'immoral' on the other. In other >> > > > > words is a dualistic concept which makes it illusory. Dogen didn't >> > > > > really use this term,did he? >> > > > > >> > > > > You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO >> > > > > AND THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously >> > > > > not so because the turning word removed them. >> > > > > >> > > > > For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to >> > > > > cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them >> > > > > he is not enlightened. >> > > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of >> > > > > > illusions and that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms >> > > > > > of the relative (I've never claimed anything as not being >> > > > > > illusory, just that to do so is not practical to live a human >> > > > > > life). For example, in Zen the saying is 'When hungry we eat' >> > > > > > (how's that for cause and effect!). It doesn't say 'When hungry - >> > > > > > just dismiss hunger as illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of the last >> > > > > > part of the koan is just that karma is not fixed (determined) and >> > > > > > can be changed. Even the negative karma of living as a fox for 500 >> > > > > > lifetimes was eventually extinguished (it could even be argued >> > > > > > that 500 lifetimes was necessary before the old man could become >> > > > > > enlightened, therefore making it positive karma if that is what >> > > > > > was required for his enlightenment). <br/><br/>I cut this from >> > > > > > angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in this passage refers to >> > > > > > "moral causation." The Buddhist concept of Karma acknowledges that >> > > > > > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad effects. >> > > > > > Thus the import of the question posed by the "fox" is whether or >> > > > > > not the Enlightened person is subject to Karma. Hyakujo's answer, >> > > > > > in effect, affirms that the Enlightened person is subject to moral >> > > > > > causation. Katsuki Sekida offers a common Zen interpretation of >> > > > > > this passage in his comment: "Thus to ignore causation only >> > > > > > compounds one's malady. To recognize causation constitutes the >> > > > > > remedy for it." See Karma and Free Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's >> > > > > > employment of this story in the "Daishugyo" chapter of the >> > > > > > Shobogenzo implies that, on one level, he thinks Hyakujo's answer >> > > > > > indeed provides a "remedy" for the old man's predicament. Yet >> > > > > > Dogen was rarely content with merely citing traditional Zen >> > > > > > interpretations of passages; typically, he sought to push his >> > > > > > students to a further understanding by a creative reinterpretation >> > > > > > of a passage. Lest his disciple therefore think this >> > > > > > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from >> > > > > > it in an ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means >> > > > > > "cause and effect are immovable." In other words, moral causation, >> > > > > > for Dogen, is an inexorable fact of human existence."<br/><br/>For >> > > > > > me then (this is Mike speaking!), the enlightened person is still >> > > > > > subject to cause and effect, but is not fooled by it. >> > > > > > <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > >
