Edgar,
I would describe the evolution of scientific thought more as 'continually
tweaking conceptual models to produce the expected results until there are so
many tweaks that a new model is produced, and then the process continues, ad
infinitum...
Here is an analogy of the problem:
Reality is amorphous. Conceptual models, being logical, are square.
It's impossible to put an amorphous shape into a square hole without"
1. making the square hold so large is accepts the entire amorphous shape
but has a lot of empty space that is unused, unnecessary. In the case of a
conceptual model this is misleading - in other words inaccurate.
2. forcing the amorphous shape into a square hole which cannot
accommodate all of it causing some of the shape to be either undefined or
ignored. In the case of a conceptual model this is misleading - in other words
inaccurate.
Reality not rational, not logical and therefore cannot be contained in (defined
by) a rational conceptual model - like science.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> William,
>
> That is true and in fact actually proves that reason progressively grows
> closer and closer to an accurate description of reality...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:11 PM, William Rintala wrote:
>
> >
> > In college I had a Philosophy professor, an Existentialist, who was fond of
> > saying about Science "it is impossible to place a quantitative value on a
> > phenomenological realm". So it would seem that Phenomenologists and
> > Exitentialist agree with both of you. He was also fond of quoting A.N
> > Whitehead "the (scientific) truths that we hold most dear today will, in
> > the future, be found to be false or be found to be so inconsequential as to
> > be trivial".
> >
> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Tue, April 30, 2013 10:00:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Someone Else's Opinion on What is Real and What is Not...
> >
> >
> > Edgar,
> >
> > The word you're using below that's problematic for me is 'accurate'. I'd
> > accept 'rational' of course, or even 'useful', but not accurate.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Sure science is "human mental models of what reality might be". But what
> > > is the reality that science so accurately models if it itself is not
> > > equally complex or more?
> > >
> > > How could a complex mental model actually accurately model something that
> > > was not equally complex or more?
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > You're right about science, but it's not reality. It's human mental
> > > > models of what reality might be. It's the human insistence on trying to
> > > > define reality by using rational mental models that makes it so complex.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob,
> > > > >
> > > > > One can have a simple life, a simple relationship with reality, but
> > > > > reality itself, its workings, is enormously complicated.... This is
> > > > > well known by anyone who has seriously studied the sciences.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, bobthomas564 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Edgar - I don't want to open up a new battle front, you and Bill
> > > > > > are having a lot of fun, BUT I always thought that 'Marvellous,
> > > > > > chopping wood and fetching water' was about the simplicity of
> > > > > > reality? and some of the enlightenment poems point to the
> > > > > > simplicity of it all. It must be simple if Hui Neng, with no
> > > > > > training, could undo some of the most complex questions based on
> > > > > > his enlightenment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you disagree?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Reality IS complicated...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:07 PM, bobthomas564 wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Edgar - You remind me of a line from a favourite rock n roll
> > > > > > > > song of
> > > > > > > > mine by a group called Garbage. the line is "I'm only happy
> > > > > > > > when it's
> > > > > > > > complicated" .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From "Only happy when it rains" if you like rock n roll here's'
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > utube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEdC0c3YI4
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Another great line is 'pour your misery down on me'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill and Merle,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here Bill is arguing against something I've never said so
> > > > > > > > > he's not
> > > > > > > > arguing against me, he's arguing against his own demons...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Apparently Bill is continually beset by naughty little Zen
> > > > > > > > > demons
> > > > > > > > whispering he's wrong that he can't quite manage to exorcise!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill, when you realize that all demons are actually Buddhas in
> > > > > > > > disguise you will understand!
> > > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think
> > > > > > > > > > it fills
> > > > > > > > it up.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ..Bill!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I
> > > > > > > > > > > support....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I see your problem now.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON
> > > > > > > > > > > > things - like
> > > > > > > > knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING AWAY things
> > > > > > > > until you
> > > > > > > > get down to Just THIS!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You
> > > > > > > > > > > > progress from
> > > > > > > > Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is actually
> > > > > > > > no-level -
> > > > > > > > Buddha Nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying
> > > > > > > > > > > > it...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Niels, not Neal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied
> > > > > > > > incorrectly. I erased that but if you get the posts by email
> > > > > > > > you might
> > > > > > > > have received it. If you did please disregard. My corrected
> > > > > > > > post is ***
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with Stage
> > > > > > > > Two and and now ready for Stage One!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > expresses
> > > > > > > > stage two "mountains are no longer mountains".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > realized to be the true reality. Then mountains become
> > > > > > > > mountains again..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yet...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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