It even looks like one of the founders of Chan fell for it too! "Nothing is left behind, Nothing stays with us. Bright and empty, The mind shines by itself."
Seng Can, third patriarch of Chan --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > William, > > Obviously some of this group's members HAVE fallen for the same Zen scam over > and over and still do! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:28 AM, William Rintala wrote: > > > > > Empty Mind/Cup does not equal Empty Headed. Correct? Open Mind does not > > mean absolute naivety does it. Would someone whose mind had the qualities > > of Open and Empty Mindedness fall for the same scams repeatedly? Would such > > a person be incapable of learning, of retaining knowledge, of doing > > productive work? Aren't there stories of Zen Idiots? > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Mon, April 29, 2013 3:45:23 AM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: open mind? > > > > > > Merle and Edgar, > > > > I'm going to jump in here again to better explain what I mean by an 'empty > > mind'. To do that I'll use the teacup analogy. I know Edgar already knows > > the story but just in case Merle or anyone else reading this does not I'll > > repeat it here: > > > > "A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master > > quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the > > visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the > > overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! > > No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the > > master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup." - > > Traditional Zen Story > > > > Using that analogy your mind (intellect) is like the cup. The tea > > represents all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, > > associations, etc..., that you carry around with you. > > > > When I say 'empty mind' I mean a mind (intellect) that is free of > > attachments to all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, > > associations, etc..., which you have previously formed. It doesn't you've > > forgotten them permanently, but it means at this time of 'empty mind' you > > are not attached to or bound by any of them. > > > > Using the teacup analogy it would mean each time you have a new experience > > you do so with an empty cup. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill...yes edgar..what is your interpretation of an open mind? can you > > > clarify?..merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > Edgar and I cannot agree because we have a completely different idea of > > > what Buddha Nature is, and therefore what zen is. Just why Edgar holds > > > the opinions he does I don't know. I hold mine because first and foremost > > > they are formed from my experience. Secondly they conform with what I've > > > been taught - not everything I've been taught, but most of it. Lastly > > > they correspond with what I've read - not everything I've read, but most > > > of it. > > > > > > Edgar's suggestion of 'opening the mind' is fine. I don't think anyone > > > would argue that having a closed mind is better. > > > > > > You'll have to ask Edgar to explain his idea of 'opening the mind' a > > > little more. I don't want to speak for him, but I SUSPECT his idea of > > > opening the mind is so you can start filling it up with knowledge, but > > > that IMO is not the way to experience Buddha Nature. > > > > > > I could also use that phrase but if I did my idea of 'opening the mind' > > > would be to start emptying it of illusions and prejudices so you can > > > experience Buddha Nature. > > > > > > These are two diametrically opposed approaches. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > àbill!..maybe emptying the cup and opening the mind are both the > > > > same thing..check with edgar...you 2 seem to be at loggerheads over > > > > this..why? > > > > àcan you not agree to disagree?..merle > > > > > > > > No, I can't say I do. At least not entirely. > > > > > > > > Edgar's teacup is about 3/4 full. He wants to keep filling it up. I'm > > > > advising him to empty it out. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what he means by 'opening the mind'. That sounds nice an > > > > new-agey, but what does it mean? Does it mean emptying his cup? Or does > > > > it mean breaking his cup? > > > > > > > > I think he should just empty his cup and go from there. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Ãâàbill!..you agree with this surely?...opening the mind?..merle > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Zen neither empties or fills your mind. The very concept of this > > > > > dualism is incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > Zen is simply opening mind to what is. It is pure consciousness of > > > > > either the forms or the formless.. > > > > > > > > > > And btw it is NOT "your mind". It is simply consciousness antecedent > > > > > to any distinction of self and not-self... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > >Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here. > > > > > > > > > > > >I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think it fills > > > > > >it up. > > > > > > > > > > > >Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it? > > > > > > > > > > > >..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Bill, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I support.... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Edgar, > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I see your problem now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON things - like > > > > > >> > knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING AWAY things > > > > > >> > until you get down to Just THIS! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You progress from > > > > > >> > Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is actually > > > > > >> > no-level - Buddha Nature. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying it...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Bill, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > That's Niels, not Neal. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go! > > > > > >> > > :-) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied > > > > > >> > > > incorrectly. I erased that but if you get the posts by email > > > > > >> > > > you might have received it. If you did please disregard. My > > > > > >> > > > corrected post is *** > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done with Stage > > > > > >> > > > Two and and now ready for Stage One! > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly expresses > > > > > >> > > > > stage two "mountains are no longer mountains". > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things are > > > > > >> > > > > realized to be the true reality. Then mountains become > > > > > >> > > > > mountains again.. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage yet... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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