Merle, Ask Edgar. I do not know the answer to that question and it's a question only he can answer.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  hi bill!..i know this story...thank you for reminder...the point is what > zen is edgar practising?...merle >  > Merle and Edgar, > > I'm going to jump in here again to better explain what I mean by an 'empty > mind'. To do that I'll use the teacup analogy. I know Edgar already knows > the story but just in case Merle or anyone else reading this does not I'll > repeat it here: > > "A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master > quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the > visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the > overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No > more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master > replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup." - > Traditional Zen Story > > Using that analogy your mind (intellect) is like the cup. The tea represents > all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, associations, etc..., > that you carry around with you. > > When I say 'empty mind' I mean a mind (intellect) that is free of attachments > to all the knowledge, concepts, prejudices, valuations, associations, etc..., > which you have previously formed. It doesn't you've forgotten them > permanently, but it means at this time of 'empty mind' you are not attached > to or bound by any of them. > > Using the teacup analogy it would mean each time you have a new experience > you do so with an empty cup. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > àbill...yes edgar..what is your interpretation of an open mind? can you > > clarify?..merle > > à> > Merle, > > > > Edgar and I cannot agree because we have a completely different idea of > > what Buddha Nature is, and therefore what zen is. Just why Edgar holds the > > opinions he does I don't know. I hold mine because first and foremost they > > are formed from my experience. Secondly they conform with what I've been > > taught - not everything I've been taught, but most of it. Lastly they > > correspond with what I've read - not everything I've read, but most of it. > > > > Edgar's suggestion of 'opening the mind' is fine. I don't think anyone > > would argue that having a closed mind is better. > > > > You'll have to ask Edgar to explain his idea of 'opening the mind' a little > > more. I don't want to speak for him, but I SUSPECT his idea of opening the > > mind is so you can start filling it up with knowledge, but that IMO is not > > the way to experience Buddha Nature. > > > > I could also use that phrase but if I did my idea of 'opening the mind' > > would be to start emptying it of illusions and prejudices so you can > > experience Buddha Nature. > > > > These are two diametrically opposed approaches. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Ãâàbill!..maybe emptying the cup and opening the mind are both the > > > same thing..check with edgar...you 2 seem to be at loggerheads over > > > this..why? > > > Ãâàcan you not agree to disagree?..merle > > > > > > No, I can't say I do. At least not entirely. > > > > > > Edgar's teacup is about 3/4 full. He wants to keep filling it up. I'm > > > advising him to empty it out. > > > > > > I'm not sure what he means by 'opening the mind'. That sounds nice an > > > new-agey, but what does it mean? Does it mean emptying his cup? Or does > > > it mean breaking his cup? > > > > > > I think he should just empty his cup and go from there. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill!..you agree with this surely?...opening the > > > > mind?..merle > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Zen neither empties or fills your mind. The very concept of this > > > > dualism is incorrect. > > > > > > > > Zen is simply opening mind to what is. It is pure consciousness of > > > > either the forms or the formless.. > > > > > > > > And btw it is NOT "your mind". It is simply consciousness antecedent to > > > > any distinction of self and not-self... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here. > > > > > > > > > >I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think it fills it > > > > >up. > > > > > > > > > >Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it? > > > > > > > > > >..Bill! > > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Bill, > > > > >> > > > > >> As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I support.... > > > > >> > > > > >> Edgar > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > Edgar, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I see your problem now. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON things - like > > > > >> > knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING AWAY things > > > > >> > until you get down to Just THIS! > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You progress from > > > > >> > Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is actually no-level > > > > >> > - Buddha Nature. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying it...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Bill, > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That's Niels, not Neal. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go! > > > > >> > > :-) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Edgar > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Edgar, > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied incorrectly. > > > > >> > > > I erased that but if you get the posts by email you might have > > > > >> > > > received it. If you did please disregard. My corrected post is > > > > >> > > > *** > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done with Stage > > > > >> > > > Two and and now ready for Stage One! > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Bill, > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly expresses stage > > > > >> > > > > two "mountains are no longer mountains". > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things are > > > > >> > > > > realized to be the true reality. Then mountains become > > > > >> > > > > mountains again.. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage yet... > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Edgar > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him... > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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