Bill, A very funny and dangerous view of reality.
Go step in front of a bus. It won't be a mistake. It will only be an experience, and therefore good Zen in your strange world... Edgar On May 19, 2013, at 4:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Au contraire mon ami... > > When Won Hyo experienced drinking water that night there was no mistake. > > The next morning when Won Hyo learned he drank from a skull it was then he > perceived a mistake. His intellect created the judgement of mistake at that > time. > > There are no mistakes in experience or Buddha Nature. There are only mistakes > in perception and the intellect. This is because 'mistake' is a rational > concept. > > Capisce? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > No, it points to the fact that if one doesn't use his rational mind his > > direct experience makes mistakes (mistaking the skull for a cup). > > > > Making mistakes one doesn't realize the true nature of reality. > > > > Therefore the rational mind is necessary to recognize the true nature of > > reality. > > > > Therefore using the rational mind is an essential part of Zen.. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > That might be true if the man from whose skull he drank had died of some > > > communicable disease, but as you well know that's not the point of the > > > story. > > > > > > The point of the story is that when Won Hyo was not able to completely > > > engage his rational mind (because of the lack of information caused by > > > the darkness) the experience of the water was refreshing. In the morning > > > when he was able to fully engage his rational mind the perception of his > > > having drank from the skull was nauseating. > > > > > > The story points out the difference between experience and perception, > > > the difference between Buddha Nature (experience) and rationalization > > > (thought). Won Hyo's conclusion was: "Ah, he said to himself, thinking > > > makes good and bad, life and death. And without thinking these is no > > > universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All is one, and this one is empty." > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > LOL! And then Won Hyo died of whatever had killed the guy who's skull > > > > he drank out of. > > > > > > > > Why? Because he was a comic book Zennist who didn't have enough sense > > > > to use his RATIONAL MIND! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > And what I am saying (and IMO) is perception should NOT be used to > > > > > illustrate Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > Perceptions are creations of the intellect (Human Nature). > > > > > > > > > > [The awareness of sensual]experience is Buddha Nature. (The > > > > > qualifiers in [brackets] should be unnecessary but I know many do not > > > > > share my definition of 'experience'.) > > > > > > > > > > Here is another zen story that I think I posted just recently that > > > > > perhaps better illustrates my point: > > > > > > > > > > "This is a story about Won Hyo, who is a famous Korean monk. He > > > > > wanted to travel to China to meet a master that would teach him > > > > > Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > One evening as Won Hyo was crossing the desert, he stopped at a small > > > > > patch of green, where there were a few trees and some water, and went > > > > > to sleep. Towards midnight he awoke, thirsty--it was pitch-dark. He > > > > > groped along on all fours, searching for water. At last his hand > > > > > touched a cup on the ground. He picked it up and drank. Ah, how > > > > > delicious! Then he bowed deeply, in gratitude, to the Buddha for the > > > > > gift of water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up and saw besides him > > > > > what he had taken for a cup (during the night). It was a shattered > > > > > skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh still stuck to the > > > > > cheek-bones. Strange insects crawled or floated on the surface of the > > > > > filthy rainwater inside it. Won Hyo looked at the skull and felt a > > > > > great wave of nausea. He opened his mouth. As soon as the vomit > > > > > poured out, his mind opened and he understood. Last night, since he > > > > > hadn't seen and hadn't thought, the water was delicious. This > > > > > morning, seeing and thinking had made him vomit. Ah, he said to > > > > > himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and death. And without > > > > > thinking these is no universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All is one, and > > > > > this one is empty. There was no need now to find a master. Won Hyo > > > > > already understood life and death. What more was there to learn? So > > > > > he turned and started back across the desert to Korea." > > > > > > > > > > -From the book entitled, "Thousand Peaks" by Mu Soeng Sunim > > > > > > > > > > Now, IMO Buddha Nature is pure experience, like Won Hyo's experience > > > > > of drinking the water. It would be like the 'Ah!' I recommended in > > > > > the strawberry story. Both his initial perception of 'delicious' and > > > > > his later perception which caused him to be nauseous is like the > > > > > 'sweet' exclamation in the strawberry story. > > > > > > > > > > So unless you want to interpret 'sweet' to just be a spontaneous, > > > > > non-judgmental exclamation IMO it is not an appropriate > > > > > representation of Buddha Nature. I'd also think that is shown by all > > > > > the confusion and dialog it has caused on just this thread. > > > > > > > > > > But, as usual, all this is CAVEAT EMPTOR and IMO only...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>You could well be correct about the story not being > > > > > > used as a recognised koan. But I'm sure I've come across it being > > > > > > used as such a couple of times. <br/><br/>I can see how "Ah!" could > > > > > > be used as you say, but it isn't. The point I'm arguing here is > > > > > > that in the story - a Zen teaching 'device'- a perception was used > > > > > > by the man to illustrate Buddha Nature. The man didn't just say > > > > > > "Sweet!" as a passive description - he exclaimed his perception > > > > > > positively.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > > > > > iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
