Edgar, Your feigned inability to grasp the meaning of stories or parables is unbecoming. At least I HOPE it's just a feigned inability because if you really can't make the leap from a story, parable or myth to it's sometimes multi-level meanings you're really missing out on a lot of wonderful literature and learning opportunities.
What you doing below would be like you showing me the mathematical symbol 'pi' and telling me it represents the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, and then me pointing out that it couldn't be because it doesn't even look like a circle but like a little table with one bent leg. How you got from drinking water on a moonless night to stepping out in front of a bus I'll never know - and frankly don't want to know. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > A very funny and dangerous view of reality. > > Go step in front of a bus. It won't be a mistake. It will only be an > experience, and therefore good Zen in your strange world... > > Edgar > > > > On May 19, 2013, at 4:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Au contraire mon ami... > > > > When Won Hyo experienced drinking water that night there was no mistake. > > > > The next morning when Won Hyo learned he drank from a skull it was then he > > perceived a mistake. His intellect created the judgement of mistake at that > > time. > > > > There are no mistakes in experience or Buddha Nature. There are only > > mistakes in perception and the intellect. This is because 'mistake' is a > > rational concept. > > > > Capisce? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > No, it points to the fact that if one doesn't use his rational mind his > > > direct experience makes mistakes (mistaking the skull for a cup). > > > > > > Making mistakes one doesn't realize the true nature of reality. > > > > > > Therefore the rational mind is necessary to recognize the true nature of > > > reality. > > > > > > Therefore using the rational mind is an essential part of Zen.. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > That might be true if the man from whose skull he drank had died of > > > > some communicable disease, but as you well know that's not the point of > > > > the story. > > > > > > > > The point of the story is that when Won Hyo was not able to completely > > > > engage his rational mind (because of the lack of information caused by > > > > the darkness) the experience of the water was refreshing. In the > > > > morning when he was able to fully engage his rational mind the > > > > perception of his having drank from the skull was nauseating. > > > > > > > > The story points out the difference between experience and perception, > > > > the difference between Buddha Nature (experience) and rationalization > > > > (thought). Won Hyo's conclusion was: "Ah, he said to himself, thinking > > > > makes good and bad, life and death. And without thinking these is no > > > > universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All is one, and this one is empty." > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > LOL! And then Won Hyo died of whatever had killed the guy who's skull > > > > > he drank out of. > > > > > > > > > > Why? Because he was a comic book Zennist who didn't have enough sense > > > > > to use his RATIONAL MIND! > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > And what I am saying (and IMO) is perception should NOT be used to > > > > > > illustrate Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perceptions are creations of the intellect (Human Nature). > > > > > > > > > > > > [The awareness of sensual]experience is Buddha Nature. (The > > > > > > qualifiers in [brackets] should be unnecessary but I know many do > > > > > > not share my definition of 'experience'.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is another zen story that I think I posted just recently that > > > > > > perhaps better illustrates my point: > > > > > > > > > > > > "This is a story about Won Hyo, who is a famous Korean monk. He > > > > > > wanted to travel to China to meet a master that would teach him > > > > > > Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > > > One evening as Won Hyo was crossing the desert, he stopped at a > > > > > > small patch of green, where there were a few trees and some water, > > > > > > and went to sleep. Towards midnight he awoke, thirsty--it was > > > > > > pitch-dark. He groped along on all fours, searching for water. At > > > > > > last his hand touched a cup on the ground. He picked it up and > > > > > > drank. Ah, how delicious! Then he bowed deeply, in gratitude, to > > > > > > the Buddha for the gift of water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up > > > > > > and saw besides him what he had taken for a cup (during the night). > > > > > > It was a shattered skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh > > > > > > still stuck to the cheek-bones. Strange insects crawled or floated > > > > > > on the surface of the filthy rainwater inside it. Won Hyo looked at > > > > > > the skull and felt a great wave of nausea. He opened his mouth. As > > > > > > soon as the vomit poured out, his mind opened and he understood. > > > > > > Last night, since he hadn't seen and hadn't thought, the water was > > > > > > delicious. This morning, seeing and thinking had made him vomit. > > > > > > Ah, he said to himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and > > > > > > death. And without thinking these is no universe, no Buddha, no > > > > > > Dharma. All is one, and this one is empty. There was no need now to > > > > > > find a master. Won Hyo already understood life and death. What more > > > > > > was there to learn? So he turned and started back across the desert > > > > > > to Korea." > > > > > > > > > > > > -From the book entitled, "Thousand Peaks" by Mu Soeng Sunim > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, IMO Buddha Nature is pure experience, like Won Hyo's > > > > > > experience of drinking the water. It would be like the 'Ah!' I > > > > > > recommended in the strawberry story. Both his initial perception of > > > > > > 'delicious' and his later perception which caused him to be > > > > > > nauseous is like the 'sweet' exclamation in the strawberry story. > > > > > > > > > > > > So unless you want to interpret 'sweet' to just be a spontaneous, > > > > > > non-judgmental exclamation IMO it is not an appropriate > > > > > > representation of Buddha Nature. I'd also think that is shown by > > > > > > all the confusion and dialog it has caused on just this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, as usual, all this is CAVEAT EMPTOR and IMO only...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>You could well be correct about the story not > > > > > > > being used as a recognised koan. But I'm sure I've come across it > > > > > > > being used as such a couple of times. <br/><br/>I can see how > > > > > > > "Ah!" could be used as you say, but it isn't. The point I'm > > > > > > > arguing here is that in the story - a Zen teaching 'device'- a > > > > > > > perception was used by the man to illustrate Buddha Nature. The > > > > > > > man didn't just say "Sweet!" as a passive description - he > > > > > > > exclaimed his perception > > > > > > > positively.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > > > > > > iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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