Bill, Never said it was your story. I was commenting on your and Merle's INTERPRETATION of the story.
Edgar On May 19, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > I know I'm beating a dead horse, but IT'S NOT MY STORY! It's a traditional > zen story from Korea. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > I grasp your meaning but its wrong... Either that or you are expressing it > > improperly... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 19, 2013, at 8:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > Your feigned inability to grasp the meaning of stories or parables is > > > unbecoming. At least I HOPE it's just a feigned inability because if you > > > really can't make the leap from a story, parable or myth to it's > > > sometimes multi-level meanings you're really missing out on a lot of > > > wonderful literature and learning opportunities. > > > > > > What you doing below would be like you showing me the mathematical symbol > > > 'pi' and telling me it represents the ratio of a circle's circumference > > > to its diameter, and then me pointing out that it couldn't be because it > > > doesn't even look like a circle but like a little table with one bent leg. > > > > > > How you got from drinking water on a moonless night to stepping out in > > > front of a bus I'll never know - and frankly don't want to know. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > A very funny and dangerous view of reality. > > > > > > > > Go step in front of a bus. It won't be a mistake. It will only be an > > > > experience, and therefore good Zen in your strange world... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 2013, at 4:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > Au contraire mon ami... > > > > > > > > > > When Won Hyo experienced drinking water that night there was no > > > > > mistake. > > > > > > > > > > The next morning when Won Hyo learned he drank from a skull it was > > > > > then he perceived a mistake. His intellect created the judgement of > > > > > mistake at that time. > > > > > > > > > > There are no mistakes in experience or Buddha Nature. There are only > > > > > mistakes in perception and the intellect. This is because 'mistake' > > > > > is a rational concept. > > > > > > > > > > Capisce? > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it points to the fact that if one doesn't use his rational mind > > > > > > his direct experience makes mistakes (mistaking the skull for a > > > > > > cup). > > > > > > > > > > > > Making mistakes one doesn't realize the true nature of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the rational mind is necessary to recognize the true > > > > > > nature of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore using the rational mind is an essential part of Zen.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That might be true if the man from whose skull he drank had died > > > > > > > of some communicable disease, but as you well know that's not the > > > > > > > point of the story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of the story is that when Won Hyo was not able to > > > > > > > completely engage his rational mind (because of the lack of > > > > > > > information caused by the darkness) the experience of the water > > > > > > > was refreshing. In the morning when he was able to fully engage > > > > > > > his rational mind the perception of his having drank from the > > > > > > > skull was nauseating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The story points out the difference between experience and > > > > > > > perception, the difference between Buddha Nature (experience) and > > > > > > > rationalization (thought). Won Hyo's conclusion was: "Ah, he said > > > > > > > to himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and death. And > > > > > > > without thinking these is no universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All > > > > > > > is one, and this one is empty." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! And then Won Hyo died of whatever had killed the guy who's > > > > > > > > skull he drank out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? Because he was a comic book Zennist who didn't have enough > > > > > > > > sense to use his RATIONAL MIND! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what I am saying (and IMO) is perception should NOT be > > > > > > > > > used to illustrate Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perceptions are creations of the intellect (Human Nature). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [The awareness of sensual]experience is Buddha Nature. (The > > > > > > > > > qualifiers in [brackets] should be unnecessary but I know > > > > > > > > > many do not share my definition of 'experience'.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is another zen story that I think I posted just recently > > > > > > > > > that perhaps better illustrates my point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "This is a story about Won Hyo, who is a famous Korean monk. > > > > > > > > > He wanted to travel to China to meet a master that would > > > > > > > > > teach him Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One evening as Won Hyo was crossing the desert, he stopped at > > > > > > > > > a small patch of green, where there were a few trees and some > > > > > > > > > water, and went to sleep. Towards midnight he awoke, > > > > > > > > > thirsty--it was pitch-dark. He groped along on all fours, > > > > > > > > > searching for water. At last his hand touched a cup on the > > > > > > > > > ground. He picked it up and drank. Ah, how delicious! Then he > > > > > > > > > bowed deeply, in gratitude, to the Buddha for the gift of > > > > > > > > > water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up and saw besides him > > > > > > > > > what he had taken for a cup (during the night). It was a > > > > > > > > > shattered skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh still > > > > > > > > > stuck to the cheek-bones. Strange insects crawled or floated > > > > > > > > > on the surface of the filthy rainwater inside it. Won Hyo > > > > > > > > > looked at the skull and felt a great wave of nausea. He > > > > > > > > > opened his mouth. As soon as the vomit poured out, his mind > > > > > > > > > opened and he understood. Last night, since he hadn't seen > > > > > > > > > and hadn't thought, the water was delicious. This morning, > > > > > > > > > seeing and thinking had made him vomit. Ah, he said to > > > > > > > > > himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and death. And > > > > > > > > > without thinking these is no universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. > > > > > > > > > All is one, and this one is empty. There was no need now to > > > > > > > > > find a master. Won Hyo already understood life and death. > > > > > > > > > What more was there to learn? So he turned and started back > > > > > > > > > across the desert to Korea." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -From the book entitled, "Thousand Peaks" by Mu Soeng Sunim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, IMO Buddha Nature is pure experience, like Won Hyo's > > > > > > > > > experience of drinking the water. It would be like the 'Ah!' > > > > > > > > > I recommended in the strawberry story. Both his initial > > > > > > > > > perception of 'delicious' and his later perception which > > > > > > > > > caused him to be nauseous is like the 'sweet' exclamation in > > > > > > > > > the strawberry story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So unless you want to interpret 'sweet' to just be a > > > > > > > > > spontaneous, non-judgmental exclamation IMO it is not an > > > > > > > > > appropriate representation of Buddha Nature. I'd also think > > > > > > > > > that is shown by all the confusion and dialog it has caused > > > > > > > > > on just this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, as usual, all this is CAVEAT EMPTOR and IMO only...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>You could well be correct about the story > > > > > > > > > > not being used as a recognised koan. But I'm sure I've come > > > > > > > > > > across it being used as such a couple of times. <br/><br/>I > > > > > > > > > > can see how "Ah!" could be used as you say, but it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > The point I'm arguing here is that in the story - a Zen > > > > > > > > > > teaching 'device'- a perception was used by the man to > > > > > > > > > > illustrate Buddha Nature. The man didn't just say "Sweet!" > > > > > > > > > > as a passive description - he exclaimed his perception > > > > > > > > > > positively.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! > > > > > > > > > > Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
