Edgar, I answered this is a prior, separate post, but I wanted to ask you if you think your questions below answered my question. In other word is your answer to 'what is an example of a form' a plate or some other object that is not now present?
If your answer to that is 'yes', then is there any difference if the object is present? Is it still a form then, or is it something else? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Does the round plate you ate your last meal off of exist only in your mind? > > If not then where? > > Does your wife who loyally cooked that last meal exist only in your mind? > > If not then where? > > Answer carefully as I'll be forwarding your answer to your wife! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe arises in > > Nature...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > You've read too much Plato! > > > > > > The concept of a circle is something that arises in human minds. It's a > > > human generalization or idealization of certain types of forms that arise > > > in nature. > > > > > > You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle exists somewhere > > > in never never land out there but I don't... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or even a > > > > misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that is the case > > > > when I talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and Edgar talks about > > > > 'Zen'. I've detected that and tried to steer clear of those situations > > > > to avoid the seemingly endless and useless refutations in which we > > > > often engage. > > > > > > > > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll see > > > > what Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in: > > > > > > > > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by extension so > > > > is the mathematical formulas expressing the relationships between a > > > > circle's circumference, diameter, radius and volume. > > > > > > > > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment explaining his > > > > belief about circles and if he responds the way I think he will I'll > > > > take it from there to illustrate how our differences become amplified. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar > > > > > > claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory > > > > > because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is > > > > > illusory because we are still trapped in duality. > > > > > > > > > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head, > > > > > that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what > > > > > they are, the reality. > > > > > > > > > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same > > > > > thing.... > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > No, unfortunately not. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree > > > > > with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I > > > > > have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of > > > > > us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the > > > > > structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our > > > > > perceptions. > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims > > > > > they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are > > > > > semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > > > > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in > > > > > > reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole > > > > > > meaning.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar > > > > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably > > > > > > > disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over > > > > > > > the rest of this post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > - Rumi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves > > > > > > > form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend > > > > > > > themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in > > > > > > > Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of > > > > > > > it is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The > > > > > > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as > > > > > > > something independent and apart from everything else has vanished > > > > > > > with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for > > > > > > > emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has > > > > > > > been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This > > > > > > > alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and > > > > > > > self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically > > > > > > > upon the beach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, > > > > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things > > > > > > > appear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions > > > > > > > melt back into emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see > > > > > > > what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it > > > > > > > for him... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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