Hi Bill, > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they > are part of reality.
If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is illusory because we are still trapped in duality. Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what they are, the reality. I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same thing.... Siska -----Original Message----- From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > :-) > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > Bill, > > Total agreement as stated. > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality > instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. > > Edgar > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Siska, > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion > > on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this > > statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > I looked for my self, > > But my self was gone. > > The boundaries of my being > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > It always happens like this. > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > Another being takes form. > > And when the sea sends word, > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > - Rumi > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come > > rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping > > back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing > > this poem. My interpretation of it is: > > > > I looked for my self, > > But my self was gone. > > The boundaries of my being > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion > > of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent > > and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into > > sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > It always happens like this. > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, > > much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > Another being takes form. > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back > > into emptiness. > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar > > comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > >
