Edgar, You have employed a corrupted syllogism:
- Solipsism is believing that things only exist in one's mind. - Bill! believes things only exist in his mind. - Therefore, Bill! practices solipsism. You error is in the definition solipsism. Dictionary.com has: sol·ip·sism noun 1. Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist. 2. Extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic... 1. I have repeated over and over again that I believe the 'self' is illusory and in fact cannot be proved to exist. 2. I have also repeated over and over again that feelings, desires (attachments) are also illusory in that they are anchored to the illusion of self. When the illusion of self dissolves these attachments dissolve also - like waves breaking on the shore and disappearing into the sea. So, here are two corrected versions of your corrupted syllogism: A negative conclusion: - Solipsism is believing that things only exist in one's mind. - Bill! believes things in his mind are illusions and don't really exist. - Therefore, Bill! does not practice solipsism. ...or a positive conclusion: - Zen teaches the ability to distinguish between experience (Buddha Nature) and illusion. - Bill! recognized the distinction between experience (Buddha Nature) and illusion. Therefore, Bill! practices zen. I hope this helps clear things up for you...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > That's solipsism. You claim the plate and your wife are illusions in your > mind. > > If you really believe that, which I'm sure you don't. You just read it in a > zen comic book somewhere, you should be institutionalized. > > Edgar > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > If I am unable at this moment to experience (see, hear, smell, taste or > > feel) that plate or my wife then yes, they 'exist' only in my mind. They > > 'exist' as thoughts - memories or fantasies - in other words illusions. My > > intellect creates the idea that they persist. When I at some later moment > > experience (see, hear, smell, taste or feel) them my intellect relates my > > memory with my current experience and gives me the illusion that they are > > persistent. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Does the round plate you ate your last meal off of exist only in your > > > mind? > > > > > > If not then where? > > > > > > Does your wife who loyally cooked that last meal exist only in your mind? > > > > > > If not then where? > > > > > > Answer carefully as I'll be forwarding your answer to your wife! > > > :-) > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > Okay, then give me an example of a 'form' that you believe arises in > > > > Nature...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > You've read too much Plato! > > > > > > > > > > The concept of a circle is something that arises in human minds. It's > > > > > a human generalization or idealization of certain types of forms that > > > > > arise in nature. > > > > > > > > > > You thought I'd agree with Plato that the ideal circle exists > > > > > somewhere in never never land out there but I don't... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think some of Edgar's and my differences are semantic or > > > > > > even a misunderstanding of what each one is saying. I know that is > > > > > > the case when I talk about 'experience of Buddha Nature' and Edgar > > > > > > talks about 'Zen'. I've detected that and tried to steer clear of > > > > > > those situations to avoid the seemingly endless and useless > > > > > > refutations in which we often engage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me give an example of what I think is an illusion and we'll see > > > > > > what Edgar says when he wakes up in the USA and logs in: > > > > > > > > > > > > I claim the mental concept of a circle is illusory; and by > > > > > > extension so is the mathematical formulas expressing the > > > > > > relationships between a circle's circumference, diameter, radius > > > > > > and volume. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope when Edgar reads this he will leave us a comment explaining > > > > > > his belief about circles and if he responds the way I think he will > > > > > > I'll take it from there to illustrate how our differences become > > > > > > amplified. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar > > > > > > > > claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory > > > > > > > because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all > > > > > > > is illusory because we are still trapped in duality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our > > > > > > > head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they > > > > > > > are what they are, the reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same > > > > > > > thing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, unfortunately not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to > > > > > > > agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that > > > > > > > corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists > > > > > > > independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I > > > > > > > believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our > > > > > > > experiences to create our perceptions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar > > > > > > > claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are > > > > > > > semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist > > > > > > > > in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the > > > > > > > > whole meaning.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar > > > > > > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll > > > > > > > > > probably disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly > > > > > > > > > jump all over the rest of this post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > - Rumi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the > > > > > > > > > waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and > > > > > > > > > then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing > > > > > > > > > himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My > > > > > > > > > interpretation of it is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of > > > > > > > > > 'self' as something independent and apart from everything > > > > > > > > > else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is > > > > > > > > > a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has > > > > > > > > > been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This > > > > > > > > > alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and > > > > > > > > > self happens regularly, much like the waves surging > > > > > > > > > rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, > > > > > > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things > > > > > > > > > appear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these > > > > > > > > > illusions melt back into emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to > > > > > > > > > see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost > > > > > > > > > write it for him... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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