Wrong... Edgar
On May 26, 2013, at 9:33 PM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > You don't 'solve' koans, if by 'solving' you mean 'put them into a nice, > clean, rational perspective'. Like Merle said several posts ago, 'Zen is not > about grasping'. > > You don't 'grasp' or 'solve' or 'understand' koans or Buddha Nature or zen. > You experience them. You live them. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > That's the Zen for Dummies approach. > > > > The superior approach is to actually SOLVE the koan. When you truly > > understand it realization appears! > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed > > > to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the > > > point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual > > > (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect > > > quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > No, you still don't get the obvious. > > > > > > > > I give up! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates > > > > > dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they > > > > > 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > NO! > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does > > > > > > not exist! > > > > > > > > > > > > Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality > > > > > > of mind and not mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind > > > > > > does not yet exist when the forms arise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise > > > > > > in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the > > > > > > fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the > > > > > > dualism of experiencer and experienced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... > > > > > > > > > > > > At the most fundamental level forms just arise. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that > > > > > > is all that is possible for anything to arise within. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are > > > > > > reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and > > > > > > obvious. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't > > > > > > confuse you with them right now..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, unfortunately not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to > > > > > > > agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that > > > > > > > corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists > > > > > > > independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I > > > > > > > believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our > > > > > > > experiences to create our perceptions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar > > > > > > > claims they are part of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are > > > > > > > semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist > > > > > > > > in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the > > > > > > > > whole meaning.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar > > > > > > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll > > > > > > > > > probably disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly > > > > > > > > > jump all over the rest of this post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > - Rumi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the > > > > > > > > > waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and > > > > > > > > > then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing > > > > > > > > > himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My > > > > > > > > > interpretation of it is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of > > > > > > > > > 'self' as something independent and apart from everything > > > > > > > > > else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is > > > > > > > > > a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has > > > > > > > > > been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This > > > > > > > > > alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and > > > > > > > > > self happens regularly, much like the waves surging > > > > > > > > > rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, > > > > > > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things > > > > > > > > > appear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these > > > > > > > > > illusions melt back into emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to > > > > > > > > > see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost > > > > > > > > > write it for him... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
