No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up!
Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. > That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as > illusions - like a dream. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > NO! > > > > You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. > > > > But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. > > > > I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not > > exist! > > > > Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind > > and not mind. > > > > So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not > > yet exist when the forms arise. > > > > Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. > > > > Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind > > OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. > > > > So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental > > reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of > > experiencer and experienced. > > > > Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... > > > > At the most fundamental level forms just arise. > > > > What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all > > that is possible for anything to arise within. > > > > Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, > > because reality is the totality of all that exists. > > > > > > Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. > > > > There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse > > you with them right now..... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > No, unfortunately not. > > > > > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with > > > what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have > > > stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. > > > > > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us > > > and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures > > > and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. > > > > > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims > > > they are part of reality. > > > > > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, > > > but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > > > > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in > > > > reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole > > > > meaning.. > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite > > > > > opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree > > > > > with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of > > > > > this post. > > > > > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > - Rumi > > > > > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves > > > > > form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend > > > > > themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha > > > > > Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: > > > > > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > > > But my self was gone. > > > > > The boundaries of my being > > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The > > > > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as > > > > > something independent and apart from everything else has vanished > > > > > with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been > > > > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation > > > > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens > > > > > regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, > > > > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. > > > > > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt > > > > > back into emptiness. > > > > > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what > > > > > Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for > > > > > him... > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
