Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or something??<br/><br/><br/>>First
you say "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver dispensing justice based on good or
bad acts" >I wholeheartedly agree with that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet
impressed) that you didn't just call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT then you say
"If you think and/or do unwholesome deeds, then suffering will follow you like
>night follows day (and vice-versa)". So you first say karma has nothing to do
with justice (fairness >in applying law) or good/bad acts and good/bad
consequences, but then go onto say if you do >bad things you'll suffer.
<br/><br/>Yes, and that's because it has nothing to do with justice and all to
do with the more natural and consequential nature of such actions (You'll
notice that you used the word "bad" where I used the more limited
"unwholesome"). <br/><br/>>That's a non sequitur at best and just plain
contradictory and inconsistent at worst. If you do good
things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How does that fit
into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that you're still focusing on
external situations (they were robbed; insulted; a loved one leaves etc) that
are acted on someone and not on how those situations are processed by the
person affected. Wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome actions which in turn
cause further wholesome thoughts, and so on, which extinguish (mental)
suffering. Karma is not a magic talisman that stops "bad" things happening to
you externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use an inappropriate simile saying
these effects of karma is "like night follows >day (and vice-versa)". Night
does not 'cause' day, and day does not 'cause' night. No one I know >of would
seriously say that night and day have a cause-and-effect relationship. Night
and day are >perceived as asynchronous, serial, and in this case cyclic
events.<br/><br/>My use of 'Like night follows day' is
just an everyday expression of the consequences of a thought/action and NOT an
example of cause and effect! Have you ever heard of the Dharmapada? This is
how the Buddha expressed it:<br/><br/>"What we are today comes from our
thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: our
life is the creation of our mind.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with an impure
mind, suffering will follow him as the wheel of the cart follows the beast that
draws the cart.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with a pure mind, joy follows him
as his own shadow." (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the meaning I wanted to
convey. Don't look at my use of 'night follows day' as being an example of
cause and effect, but more along the lines of 'what will surely
follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous post, if karma does
exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results in a >corresponding good/bad
effect (as you have said it doesn't but then said it
does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and even
persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the effects of karma
attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma doesn't "exist" as a thing in the
same way that gravity doesn't exist as an entity. It's the description of a Law
(in this case, cause and effect). I have no idea about reincarnation/ rebirth.
Cause and effect operates regardless of such beliefs. <br/><br/><br/>>One last
thing...if you ever do want to have a discussion on just plain old
cause-and-effect please >remember your inappropriate simili above of "like
night follows day (and vice-versa)". In a >discussion on the human perception
of cause-and-effect it will then indeed be very appropriate.<br/><br/>The fact
that you responded to my post should be enough to end any questioning of cause
and effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
