Edgar, et al...
The only thing I'd agree with in Edgar's post below is that karma is indeed a
core Buddhist teaching.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Mike and Bill,
>
> Mike, Bill is totally hopeless here. He has somehow got into his head that
> there is no cause and effect and argues that on the basis of cause and effect
> while living his life, like everyone else does, on the basis of cause and
> effect.
>
> It would be a potentially dangerous delusion if he actually believed it which
> he really doesn't. He's just somehow got into his head that zen people are
> not supposed to believe in cause and effect even though EVERY Zen teacher
> from Buddha through Dogen onward has clearly affirmed that cause and effect
> rules the world of forms.
>
> I've tried to explain this self evident fact to Bill over and over with no
> success.
>
> That being said the simplistic view of Karma that good begets good and evil
> evil is clearly much too naive. And of course there is no reincarnation.
>
> However the quote you gave does not say that. What it says is that if you
> yourself have bad thoughts and incorrect thoughts you will suffer but if you
> have right thought you can avoid suffering to that extent. That is correct
> and a core Buddhist teaching - which of course incorporates cause and effect.
>
> It's really rather humorous and sad at the same time to see Bill obsessively
> trying to use tight logical cause and effect arguments to deny the existence
> of cause and effect, the world of forms, and the importance of reason....
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > You didn't 'catch me on a bad day' but you did read a little more into my
> > post than I actually wrote there. Edgar does this a lot.
> >
> > I agreed with your statement: "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver dispensing
> > justice based on good or bad acts". That doesn't mean I think 'karma'
> > exists at all. It would be like saying 'I agree with you when you say Santa
> > Claus doesn't wear a plaid suit'.
> >
> > I do appreciate your distinction between 'bad' and 'unwholesome'. 'Bad' is
> > just a judgement. 'Unwholesome' carries with it a connotation that the
> > effect itself is part of the cause. Like something that is 'unhealthy' will
> > make you sick.
> >
> > My opinion is 'karma' is used in the Buddhist religion a carrot and stick
> > to persuade you to act 'good' and not 'bad'. It is described as something
> > 'automatic' so that if you do something 'bad' it will result in 'bad'
> > things happening to you. In that respect it is used in much the same way as
> > is 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christianity.
> >
> > In both cases if there does appear to be a strong correlation between doing
> > 'bad' things and having 'bad' things happen to you it is not because of any
> > 'cosmic law', but because you believe it. In that respect it's kind of like
> > another religion that has a lot of cause-and-effect in it -voodoo.
> >
> > The 'night follows day' is a common phrase and I did misinterpret the
> > extent of your use of it here, but you did use it to mean that there was an
> > absolute inevitability with karma which I've said I don't buy.
> >
> > Anyway it was a nice discussion anyway.
> >
> > I say karma, sharma!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or
> > > something??<br/><br/><br/>>First you say "Karma isn't some cosmic
> > > law-giver dispensing justice based on good or bad acts" >I wholeheartedly
> > > agree with that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet impressed) that you
> > > didn't just call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT then you say "If you think
> > > and/or do unwholesome deeds, then suffering will follow you like >night
> > > follows day (and vice-versa)". So you first say karma has nothing to do
> > > with justice (fairness >in applying law) or good/bad acts and good/bad
> > > consequences, but then go onto say if you do >bad things you'll suffer.
> > > <br/><br/>Yes, and that's because it has nothing to do with justice and
> > > all to do with the more natural and consequential nature of such actions
> > > (You'll notice that you used the word "bad" where I used the more limited
> > > "unwholesome"). <br/><br/>>That's a non sequitur at best and just plain
> > > contradictory and inconsistent at worst. If you do good
> > > things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How does
> > > that fit into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that you're still
> > > focusing on external situations (they were robbed; insulted; a loved one
> > > leaves etc) that are acted on someone and not on how those situations are
> > > processed by the person affected. Wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome
> > > actions which in turn cause further wholesome thoughts, and so on, which
> > > extinguish (mental) suffering. Karma is not a magic talisman that stops
> > > "bad" things happening to you externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use
> > > an inappropriate simile saying these effects of karma is "like night
> > > follows >day (and vice-versa)". Night does not 'cause' day, and day does
> > > not 'cause' night. No one I know >of would seriously say that night and
> > > day have a cause-and-effect relationship. Night and day are >perceived as
> > > asynchronous, serial, and in this case cyclic events.<br/><br/>My use of
> > > 'Like night follows day' is
> > > just an everyday expression of the consequences of a thought/action and
> > > NOT an example of cause and effect! Have you ever heard of the
> > > Dharmapada? This is how the Buddha expressed it:<br/><br/>"What we are
> > > today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts
> > > build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind.<br/>-
> > > If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering will follow him as
> > > the wheel of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart.<br/>- If a
> > > man speaks or acts with a pure mind, joy follows him as his own shadow."
> > > (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the meaning I wanted to convey. Don't look
> > > at my use of 'night follows day' as being an example of cause and effect,
> > > but more along the lines of 'what will surely
> > > follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous post, if karma
> > > does exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results in a >corresponding
> > > good/bad effect (as you have said it doesn't but then said it
> > > does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and even
> > > persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the effects of karma
> > > attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma doesn't "exist" as a thing
> > > in the same way that gravity doesn't exist as an entity. It's the
> > > description of a Law (in this case, cause and effect). I have no idea
> > > about reincarnation/ rebirth. Cause and effect operates regardless of
> > > such beliefs. <br/><br/><br/>>One last thing...if you ever do want to
> > > have a discussion on just plain old cause-and-effect please >remember
> > > your inappropriate simili above of "like night follows day (and
> > > vice-versa)". In a >discussion on the human perception of
> > > cause-and-effect it will then indeed be very appropriate.<br/><br/>The
> > > fact that you responded to my post should be enough to end any
> > > questioning of cause and effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo!
> > > Mail for iPad
> > >
> >
> >
>
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