Mike and Bill, Mike, Bill is totally hopeless here. He has somehow got into his head that there is no cause and effect and argues that on the basis of cause and effect while living his life, like everyone else does, on the basis of cause and effect.
It would be a potentially dangerous delusion if he actually believed it which he really doesn't. He's just somehow got into his head that zen people are not supposed to believe in cause and effect even though EVERY Zen teacher from Buddha through Dogen onward has clearly affirmed that cause and effect rules the world of forms. I've tried to explain this self evident fact to Bill over and over with no success. That being said the simplistic view of Karma that good begets good and evil evil is clearly much too naive. And of course there is no reincarnation. However the quote you gave does not say that. What it says is that if you yourself have bad thoughts and incorrect thoughts you will suffer but if you have right thought you can avoid suffering to that extent. That is correct and a core Buddhist teaching - which of course incorporates cause and effect. It's really rather humorous and sad at the same time to see Bill obsessively trying to use tight logical cause and effect arguments to deny the existence of cause and effect, the world of forms, and the importance of reason.... Edgar On Jun 5, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Bill! wrote: > Mike, > > You didn't 'catch me on a bad day' but you did read a little more into my > post than I actually wrote there. Edgar does this a lot. > > I agreed with your statement: "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver dispensing > justice based on good or bad acts". That doesn't mean I think 'karma' exists > at all. It would be like saying 'I agree with you when you say Santa Claus > doesn't wear a plaid suit'. > > I do appreciate your distinction between 'bad' and 'unwholesome'. 'Bad' is > just a judgement. 'Unwholesome' carries with it a connotation that the effect > itself is part of the cause. Like something that is 'unhealthy' will make you > sick. > > My opinion is 'karma' is used in the Buddhist religion a carrot and stick to > persuade you to act 'good' and not 'bad'. It is described as something > 'automatic' so that if you do something 'bad' it will result in 'bad' things > happening to you. In that respect it is used in much the same way as is > 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christianity. > > In both cases if there does appear to be a strong correlation between doing > 'bad' things and having 'bad' things happen to you it is not because of any > 'cosmic law', but because you believe it. In that respect it's kind of like > another religion that has a lot of cause-and-effect in it -voodoo. > > The 'night follows day' is a common phrase and I did misinterpret the extent > of your use of it here, but you did use it to mean that there was an absolute > inevitability with karma which I've said I don't buy. > > Anyway it was a nice discussion anyway. > > I say karma, sharma! > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or > > something??<br/><br/><br/>>First you say "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver > > dispensing justice based on good or bad acts" >I wholeheartedly agree with > > that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet impressed) that you didn't just > > call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT then you say "If you think and/or do > > unwholesome deeds, then suffering will follow you like >night follows day > > (and vice-versa)". So you first say karma has nothing to do with justice > > (fairness >in applying law) or good/bad acts and good/bad consequences, but > > then go onto say if you do >bad things you'll suffer. <br/><br/>Yes, and > > that's because it has nothing to do with justice and all to do with the > > more natural and consequential nature of such actions (You'll notice that > > you used the word "bad" where I used the more limited "unwholesome"). > > <br/><br/>>That's a non sequitur at best and just plain contradictory and > > inconsistent at worst. If you do good > > things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How does that > > fit into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that you're still focusing > > on external situations (they were robbed; insulted; a loved one leaves etc) > > that are acted on someone and not on how those situations are processed by > > the person affected. Wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome actions which in > > turn cause further wholesome thoughts, and so on, which extinguish (mental) > > suffering. Karma is not a magic talisman that stops "bad" things happening > > to you externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use an inappropriate simile > > saying these effects of karma is "like night follows >day (and > > vice-versa)". Night does not 'cause' day, and day does not 'cause' night. > > No one I know >of would seriously say that night and day have a > > cause-and-effect relationship. Night and day are >perceived as > > asynchronous, serial, and in this case cyclic events.<br/><br/>My use of > > 'Like night follows day' is > > just an everyday expression of the consequences of a thought/action and NOT > > an example of cause and effect! Have you ever heard of the Dharmapada? This > > is how the Buddha expressed it:<br/><br/>"What we are today comes from our > > thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: > > our life is the creation of our mind.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with an > > impure mind, suffering will follow him as the wheel of the cart follows the > > beast that draws the cart.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with a pure mind, > > joy follows him as his own shadow." (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the > > meaning I wanted to convey. Don't look at my use of 'night follows day' as > > being an example of cause and effect, but more along the lines of 'what > > will surely follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous post, if > > karma does exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results in a >corresponding > > good/bad effect (as you have said it doesn't but then said it > > does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and even > > persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the effects of karma > > attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma doesn't "exist" as a thing in > > the same way that gravity doesn't exist as an entity. It's the description > > of a Law (in this case, cause and effect). I have no idea about > > reincarnation/ rebirth. Cause and effect operates regardless of such > > beliefs. <br/><br/><br/>>One last thing...if you ever do want to have a > > discussion on just plain old cause-and-effect please >remember your > > inappropriate simili above of "like night follows day (and vice-versa)". In > > a >discussion on the human perception of cause-and-effect it will then > > indeed be very appropriate.<br/><br/>The fact that you responded to my post > > should be enough to end any questioning of cause and > > effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >
