Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan.
After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. > So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything > at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that > realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan.... even in its > seemingly most insignificant aspect... > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I agree with Joe here. > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed > > to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration > > rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my > > teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not > > "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means". > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there > > is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these > > discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically > > designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the > > actual content. > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two > > different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from > > the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at > > one time. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. > > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes a > > > demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all > > > hung up about? > > > > > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a > > > few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. > > > Either, "no need", or "no aptitude". > > > > > > From my point of view, after a point, it was: > > > > > > "No need for gumdrops along the way". > > > > > > Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. > > > > > > I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. > > > > > > Hail! > > > > > > I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in > > > some life. > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively > > > > snipped is this > > > > > > > > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to > > > > believe in as an orthodox zennist. > > > > > > > > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded > > > > in a satori. > > > > > > > > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of > > > > one hand but could produce it yourself. > > > > > > > > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... > > > > > > > > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually > > > > expressed something but to discard it... > > > > > > > > Even Bill knows that... > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
