Bill, Poor Bill, for him true compassion is just a joke. He's unable to empathize or experience it...
Edgar On Jun 25, 2013, at 4:48 AM, Bill! wrote: > Merle and Edgar, > > I've known many female humans who have gone to their mailbox every month to > collect their long-dead husband's retirement check. I've never seen any > statues erected to them though. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > > > > > >  yes edgar...how many humans can be this devoted?...merle > > > > > >  > > Merle and Joe, > > > > Know the story of the faithful dog Hachiko who waited every evening at the > > train station for his master to come home from work every evening even long > > after he died on the train and never came home again? I often passed his > > statue in the local train station when I lived in Tokyo.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:51 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes mike..i see what you are saying..however i will disagree... animals > > >have been known to rise above..witness the dog who's master is dead as he > > >sits at his grave yearning and longing... animals have feelings and do > > >rise above... merle > > > > > > > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >That might be your point, but it's not mine. The tiger is doing nothing > > >wrong by following its instincts and eating you: it's nothing personal - > > >you're just lunch. I get that. But the tiger has no choice - it's blindly > > >following its instinct to survive. It has no idea of the suffering it > > >inflicts on you. Humans on the other hand can act against self-interest, > > >even if it harms themselves, because of they have an awareness of the > > >other's suffering. Just because there are more instances of the opposite > > >occurring doesn't negate that we *do* have that ability to a much higher > > >degree than any other animal. Like I said, it's not because we've been > > >divinely chosen, but because of the quirks of evolution affecting human > > >development. We are a spiritual animal. We know of no other animal that is > > >so. > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] rise above to where? > > >Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 4:27:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike..the point here is the tiger does what it does and that is > > >that..i'd rather be eaten by a tiger than murdered by a human...what would > > >you prefer?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >The use of ">" indicates a cut and paste of *your* words. > > > > > >>you seem to have it in for animals and insects etc. > > > > > >This is what you wrote about me. As I have said over and over, this is > > >simply not true. My point is that we have the ability to transcend > > >instinctive behaviours - something unique in the animal kingdom. It's such > > >an obvious point that I don't know why you'd need examples or further > > >elaboration. A human can refuse to kill a tiger even to the point of dying > > >for that belief. That same tiger would rip him apart given the chance. > > >It's nothing to do with the tiger being "bad". The point is that a human > > >can act on higher principles of compassion, mercy, altruism etc. > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] rise above to where? > > >Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 12:13:29 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > mike are you actually reading my posts...do i say i have it in for > > >animals and insects? > > > no..i say i have it in for humans!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > what ever IN means in your books > > > i see so we humans can transcend.... really..transcend to > > >where??????..merle > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >> you seem to have it in for animals, insects etc. > > > > > >Don't put words into my mouth that were never there! > > > > > >I was careful to point out in my earlier post that we are *not* superior > > >to other animals, just unique in our ability to transcend base instincts. > > >Constantly giving me examples of the terrible things humans do to each > > >other, other animals and the environment does *not* constitute an argument > > >against this premise. Human beings have the sense of sight. To keep > > >bringing up examples of blind people you know doesn't negate the first > > >point. > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: [Zen] rise above > > >Sent: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 10:43:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike...what do you wish me to elaborate?... i was in a situation back > > >when i was 20...i hitch hiked...very silly... and the guy pulled car over > > >in a bushland setting..well well well i thought best appeal to his better > > >consciousness...and with a bit of fast talking on my part he said get out > > >of car...i ran for my life... so i was succeeded in getting this animal to > > >transcend his instinct..so to speak... however this not always the case is > > >it...no amount of getting the "killer" "rapist" to see the light will ever > > >happen..hell bent on their task at hand...they do what they "must do".... > > >so now you tell me these folk can "rise above"..well maybe they cannot.... > > > you seem to have it in for animals, insects etc... they don't need to > > >"rise above"..because they do what they must do and do it well.... > > > humans are the ones who are hell bent on destruction...fuelled by > > >stupidity, ignorance, hormones, and "wrong thinking"..... > > >you know that..witness the world as it is... > > > merle > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >My apologies! I thought you were referring to the killer not the victim. > > > > > >However, I don't see the relevancy between the victim and the ability to > > >transcend animal instinct. Can you elaborate on that further in regard to > > >what I've been arguing here? > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not all  humans have a choice either.... this is simplistic thinking on > > >your part mike..did the english man butchered by the crazy killer have a > > >choice?..merle > > > > > >That's not the point I'm making though. We have a choice. Animals don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] how good is that? > > >Sent: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 4:37:33 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike..i see...however how many are willing?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >That's the point. We have the potential to do so regardless of how many > > >don't. > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] how good is that? > > >Sent: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 4:29:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike ..we "might" have the potential to rise "above"...however how many > > >of us do????????? merle > > > > > > > > > > > >Merle, > > > > > >>how many folk rise above their instincts and desires?... > > > > > >You keep missing my point. By being born human we have the _potential_ to > > >transcend our instincts and desires - something no other organism > > >consistently demonstrates. We are much more fortunate. In Buddhist/Hindu > > >terms, being born human is akin to falling off a ship and rising to the > > >surface to find a wooden yoke directly above us. > > > > > >>the other organisms that you say are trapped by instinct... > > > > > >Are you saying they are not? > > > > > >>how beautifully they live..as bill says free from attachments... they > > >>just are.. > > > > > >"Beautiful"? I'd say that's a very anthropomorphic term. You're a > > >gardener. Ever seen a vegetarian spider or a fox help a chicken cross the > > >road? > > > > > >>we ..us humans strive to be...the other organisms just are.. > > > > > >They just > > "are" includes being > > driven by > > blind instinct. We can transcend that, even though many don't. > > > > > >>no wringing of hands and wrestling with philosophies, religions > > >>psychology.... free to be........ > > >how good is that?... > > > > > >It's not a question of being superior to other animals, but that we are > > >unique - at this stage of evolution - as self-transcending beings. > > > > > > > > >>let us take a leaf out of these organisms books so to speak,.... > > > > > >Everything is our teacher. > > > > > > > > >> by the way we are those organisms.. > > >have you not met in your travels the human reptile?.... > > > > > >Many times. How many times have you met a reptilian Jesus or Dalai Lama? > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>; > > >To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: [Zen] how good is that? > > >Sent: Fri, Jun 21, 2013 11:38:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike..ho ho ho.. > > >how many folk rise above their instincts and desires?... > > >just take a look at this crazy world... > > >the other organisms that you say are trapped by instinct... > > >how beautifully they live..as bill says free from attachments... they just > > >are.. > > >we ..us humans strive to be...the other organisms just are.. > > >no wringing of hands and wrestling with philosophies, religions  > > >psychology.... free to be........ > > >how good is that?... > > >let us take a leaf out of these organisms books so to speak,.... > > > by the way we are those organisms.. > > >have you not met in your travels the human reptile?.... > > >merle > > > > > > > > >Bill!, > > > > > >I'd say the difference is a major one. Animals are driven by instinct and > > >are largely prisoners to it. We are too, but we do have the potential to > > >transcend them (instincts). > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>; > > >To: <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] no sound is heard what so ever > > >Sent: Fri, Jun 21, 2013 8:31:54 AM > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike, > > > > > >It's just possible that "no other organism' needs these gifts (the > > >dharma). Since we humans make our own suffering through attachments it's > > >possible that is not a problem, or at least as big a problem, in other > > >organisms. > > > > > >Just a thought... > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > >--- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > >> > > >> Merle,<br/><br/>I sometimes wonder if your view of humans is influenced > > >> by your personality or your exposure to Christian-Judaeo thinking. It > > >> certainly seems in accord with ideas like Original Sin! I see things > > >> differently. Those of us alive right now 'owe' it to the fact that every > > >> single one of our ancestors survived to reproductive age and procreated. > > >> We also can see our place in the universe and our origins. We have been > > >> born in a time where there is a teaching (Dharma) that shows us how we > > >> can experience ultimate reality and end our suffering. No other organism > > >> has these 'gifts'. How extraordinary and lucky we > > >> are!<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
