there is no lines that is why chris..bill is experiencing an illusion as joe says to me...maybe he needs to update his prescription to his glasses..merle
I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion. There's no sharp dividing lines anywhere that I can find, much less between the natural unlabeled living in sensory experience with red known as red being salient and with thoughts known as thoughts being salient. Either way there is no domain of red and no domain of thoughts. To me the inclusion of "awareness of the state of thinking" as a sense along with awareness of the state of vision is a very subtle and profound insight I first heard in the Heart Sutra. Out There is In Here, there's no line. Seeing includes whatever mental state (relaxed and on holiday, but bringing up a point with a valued debate friend) we are in, as much as whatever sensory experiences (blue tiles, warm water or noises from children) that consist of living right now. How could this supposed part be excluded? When I have sat, the trees' green is greener, the sky is close and intimate with my thoughts arising and falling, now stopping now starting, and you will ask me to put space between these that you are not one but two? And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale. I find no lines or boundaries. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 6:09 AM, "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: Merle, > >Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all. > >...Bill! > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >> >> >> >> Â >> Â anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle >> >> >> Â >> I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read: >> >> 'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is >> delusional.' >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > >> > Edgar, >> > >> > I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Bill, >> > > >> > > This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of >> > > the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, >> > > squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. >> > > >> > > The math our there is like software that continually computes the >> > > current state of reality in the present moment. >> > > >> > > It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... >> > > >> > > Edgar >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: >> > > >> > > > Chris, >> > > > >> > > > I fundamentally disagree with you. >> > > > >> > > > Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that >> > > > math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. >> > > > >> > > > IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on >> > > > reality the very same way we project all delusions. >> > > > >> > > > In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... >> > > > >> > > > That's the way I see it anyway... >> > > > >> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > The math's an analogy. >> > > > > >> > > > > But I will speak up for math by stating math does something >> > > > > different than >> > > > > mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the >> > > > > essential >> > > > > uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from >> > > > > thoughts >> > > > > and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. >> > > > > >> > > > > --Chris >> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks, >> > > > > >> > > > > --Chris >> > > > > chris@ >> > > > > +1-301-270-6524 >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Chris, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the >> > > > > > human >> > > > > > intellect. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is >> > > > > > > that it >> > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear >> > > > > > > equations. >> > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity >> > > > > > > is >> > > > > > seen. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks, >> > > > > > > --Chris >> > > > > > > 301-270-6524 >> > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bill!: >> > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were >> > > > > > > > looking for >> > > > > > an >> > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it >> > > > > > > > leads you >> > > > > > back >> > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the >> > > > > > > > model, >> > > > > > then >> > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize >> > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > both >> > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience >> > > > > > > > encompasses all >> > > > > > -- no >> > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and >> > > > > > mountains >> > > > > > > > again! >> > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- >> > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of >> > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and >> > > > > > > > Karma >> > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three >> > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is >> > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a >> > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of >> > > > > > > > the act itself. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, >> > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, >> > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes >> > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different >> > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit >> > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. >> > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the >> > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something >> > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic >> > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" >> > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ >> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >...Bill! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have >> > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups >> > > > > > > > Links >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have >> > > > > > > > read or >> > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read >> > > > > > or are >> > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
