Chris, >From a pluralistic POV everything is relative.
Form a monisitc POV there is just One and it is absolute - Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > I missed this earlier. > > Isn't every thing relative? Even the absolute is relative, (I cheated > once and listened rather than just chanted.) > Still, among humans, beauty is a good word, useful. > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Jul 5, 2013 6:26 PM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > You wrote: "You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty > > that applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this > > gathering, that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other > > night?" > > > > What you've correctly stated above is why I say the judgement of beauty is > > relative and not absolute. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, > > > --Chris > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. > > > > > > > > Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is > > > learned. > > > > > > > > For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin > > and > > > head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would > > > perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. > > > > > > You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that > > applies > > > to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering, > > > that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night? > > > > > > Psssh. > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâ bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand > > > experiences?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâ > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was > > probably > > > something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as > > > beautiful. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill..how do you know they were beautiful? > > > > > > clarification > > > please..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. > > > > > > > > > > > > But have also experienced Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill..is that so?...is > > > > > > > that what you have > > realised or have > > > been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful > > > sunset ?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into > > > thinking we understand the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you > > > are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go > > > your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ logic is beautiful > > because it is so pointing > > > to the truth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for > > > realisation to take place .. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you > > > said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based > > > perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model > > > the actual logic of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only > > mirrors > > > the human intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane > > <chris@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for > > > zen is that it > > > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear > > > equations. > > > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the > > eternal > > > unity is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you > > were > > > looking for an > > > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually > > it > > > leads you back > > > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression > > of > > > the model, then > > > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we > > > realize that both > > > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > encompasses all -- no > > > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become > > > rivers and mountains > > > > > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF > > there > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so > > > much a > > > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic > > quality > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], > > > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that > > "good" > > > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently > > > have read or are > > > > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
