So to encounter the monistic is not yet enlightenment? The monistic and the pluralistic fit together like a box and lid?
Sometimes you write like you are trying to separate pieces of the brain into stages of neural processing, and sometimes it sounds like one of your stages is not really a stage but some uncreated, not starting, not ending, slipping into a list of conditioned aggregates. It seems like by experience you mean awareness, orthogonal to the whole business of sensing, not step 1 in the chain of sensing. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 7, 2013 12:57 AM, "Bill!" <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > > From a pluralistic POV everything is relative. > > Form a monisitc POV there is just One and it is absolute - Just THIS! > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > > > I missed this earlier. > > > > Isn't every thing relative? Even the absolute is relative, (I cheated > > once and listened rather than just chanted.) > > Still, among humans, beauty is a good word, useful. > > > > Thanks, > > --Chris > > 301-270-6524 > > On Jul 5, 2013 6:26 PM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > You wrote: "You can't hope to come up with some general rule about > beauty > > > that applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, > this > > > gathering, that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other > > > night?" > > > > > > What you've correctly stated above is why I say the judgement of > beauty is > > > relative and not absolute. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > --Chris > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. > > > > > > > > > > Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are > constructed is > > > > learned. > > > > > > > > > > For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the > skin > > > and > > > > head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures > would > > > > perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. > > > > > > > > You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that > > > applies > > > > to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this > gathering, > > > > that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night? > > > > > > > > Psssh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand > > > > experiences?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was > > > probably > > > > something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe > things as > > > > beautiful. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill..how do you know they were beautiful? > clarification > > > > please..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But have also experienced Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill..is that > so?...is that what you have > > > realised or have > > > > been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a > beautiful > > > > sunset ?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into > > > > thinking we understand the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. > If you > > > > are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to > let go > > > > your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > <merlewiitpom@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > logic is beautiful > > > because it is so pointing > > > > to the truth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way > for > > > > realisation to take place .. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if > you > > > > said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based > > > > perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately > model > > > > the actual logic of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only > > > mirrors > > > > the human intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane > > > <chris@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies > for > > > > zen is that it > > > > > > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the > same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are > linear > > > > equations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the > > > eternal > > > > unity is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said > you > > > were > > > > looking for an > > > > > > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that > eventually > > > it > > > > leads you back > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an > expression > > > of > > > > the model, then > > > > > > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. > Then we > > > > realize that both > > > > > > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and > experience > > > > encompasses all -- no > > > > > > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become > > > > rivers and mountains > > > > > > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF > > > there > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not > so > > > > much a > > > > > > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic > > > quality > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], > > > > > > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that > is, > > > > > > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it > becomes > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be > different > > > > > > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that > > > "good" > > > > > > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > recently > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! > Groups > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > recently > > > > have read or are > > > > > > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > or > > > are > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
