from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle,
Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen > buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle >  > Merle, > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. > > ...Bill! > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are > > you?..merle > >  > > Merle, > > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language > > as I do. Someone ELSE! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a > > > judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and > > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? > > > What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!". > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was > > > > judgemental delusion?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. > > > > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha > > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. > > > > Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as > > > > 'a red bird' is the delusion. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is > > > > > in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over > > > > > and in agony...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through > > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a > > > > > disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far > > > > > > as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford > > > > > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature > > > > > > for not only humans but all beings as we know them. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i > > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in > > > > > > > cyber space.... although we need the body to get the messages out > > > > > > > there...mm that has me stumped! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be > > > > > > > achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that > > > > > > > monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the > > > > > > > whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of > > > > > > > it's own so to speak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the > > > > > > > body that we do not have any control over what so ever... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing > > > > > > > regardless)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is > > > > > > > thus: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ to be totally > > > > > > > free ..the human body is it a restraint? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > Merle > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
