Stephen, I'm not going to engage in point-by-point games here. Life's too short,
and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear and
unamibiguous. Dan, in the course of his discussion, which wasn't just about Elder
Nelson's talk, has used two sources. I criticized the first one for being vague
and undependable and demonstrated why -- the vague, 2nd-hand  that the author in
his source used in a referernce to Jane's couldn't be found in a search on Jane's
site. The Economist article, which I used (not having anything to do with Elder
Nelson's talk -- this occurred before conference weekend) was specific and it was
unbiased. There seems to be some confusion between using emotional words and bias
which it seems you and Dan both need to clarify in your own minds to improve your
critical reading skills, imho. But you take your information from where you wish.

Anyone paying attention to the thread could have figured this out, and seen that
Dan and I were interpreting data differently. That's all. I thought I could ease
myself out of this by leaving the last word to Dan and he abused what was meant
to be a gentlemanly gesture by calling me a liar.

I suppose that's not "biased".

I'm off this thread. Elder Nelson's words are very clear, and if you want to
twist them so as to make yourself feel more comfortable, fine.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the
> > Ensign. I myself have a difficult time seeing how people can
> > still, with all due respect, "not get it" after hearing this talk.
> And I have a difficult time seeing why people are so eager to twist an
> apostle's words into supporting their political tastes, rather than try
> to glean the truth and wisdom he was teaching. I suppose we both should
> work on our ability to understand.
> > He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce war" and emphasized that
> > it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would be the
> > peacemakers in the region.
> And therefore...?
> > There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS.
> >From The American Heritage Dictionary (1985):
>      1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be
>      settled peacefully.
>      2a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving
>      disputes.
>      b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in
>      military action.
> #1 does partially apply to Saints, of course, but it is so obvious that
> even the most hawk-like Saint agrees that disputes *should* be settled
> peacefully. Disputes involving aggression by enemies against you
> obviously *cannot* be settled peacefully. Both parts of definition 2 are
> anti-Mormon.

> >From Merriam-Webster's online (
>      Main Entry: pac∑i∑fism
>      Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
>      Function: noun
>      Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
>      Date: 1902
>      1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling
>      disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or
>      religious grounds
>      2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance
> Neither of these definitions describes the Church's position.
> The definion at is word-for-word identical to that of
> the American Heritage definition quoted above.
> So you're wrong, Marc. Mormons are *not* pacifist, or at least they
> should not be. Quite the contrary.
> Stephen
> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authorís employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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