Stephen, I'm not going to engage in point-by-point games here. Life's too short, and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear and unamibiguous. Dan, in the course of his discussion, which wasn't just about Elder Nelson's talk, has used two sources. I criticized the first one for being vague and undependable and demonstrated why -- the vague, 2nd-hand that the author in his source used in a referernce to Jane's couldn't be found in a search on Jane's site. The Economist article, which I used (not having anything to do with Elder Nelson's talk -- this occurred before conference weekend) was specific and it was unbiased. There seems to be some confusion between using emotional words and bias which it seems you and Dan both need to clarify in your own minds to improve your critical reading skills, imho. But you take your information from where you wish.
Anyone paying attention to the thread could have figured this out, and seen that Dan and I were interpreting data differently. That's all. I thought I could ease myself out of this by leaving the last word to Dan and he abused what was meant to be a gentlemanly gesture by calling me a liar. I suppose that's not "biased". I'm off this thread. Elder Nelson's words are very clear, and if you want to twist them so as to make yourself feel more comfortable, fine. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the > > Ensign. I myself have a difficult time seeing how people can > > still, with all due respect, "not get it" after hearing this talk. > > And I have a difficult time seeing why people are so eager to twist an > apostle's words into supporting their political tastes, rather than try > to glean the truth and wisdom he was teaching. I suppose we both should > work on our ability to understand. > > > He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce war" and emphasized that > > it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would be the > > peacemakers in the region. > > And therefore...? > > > There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS. > > >From The American Heritage Dictionary (1985): > > 1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be > settled peacefully. > 2a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving > disputes. > b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in > military action. > > #1 does partially apply to Saints, of course, but it is so obvious that > even the most hawk-like Saint agrees that disputes *should* be settled > peacefully. Disputes involving aggression by enemies against you > obviously *cannot* be settled peacefully. Both parts of definition 2 are > anti-Mormon. > >From Merriam-Webster's online (www.m-w.com): > > Main Entry: pac∑i∑fism > Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m > Function: noun > Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific > Date: 1902 > 1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling > disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or > religious grounds > 2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance > > Neither of these definitions describes the Church's position. > > The definion at www.dictionary.com is word-for-word identical to that of > the American Heritage definition quoted above. > > So you're wrong, Marc. Mormons are *not* pacifist, or at least they > should not be. Quite the contrary. > > Stephen > > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authorís employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: email@example.com EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===============================================================