Ken Manheimer wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:24:40 -0600, Casey Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > "Jay, Dylan" wrote:
> > >
> > > Fishbowl is a great idea but it seems to be that its solution focused rather
> > > than problem focus. Perhaps if you had a page that listed all the problems
> > > with zope or problems that need to be solved that isn't as easy as it could
> > > be with zope.
> I think it would be helpful to have a "big picture", with goals and
> objectives, into which to fit the pieces - would that address the kinds of
> things you're talking about?
> > The fishbowl is also "pull" technology, and so it is time-consuming to
> > keep up with the developments. I personally find it to be cumbersome,
> > limiting and not really conducive to actually getting stuff done.
> I've really wanted to enable people to subscribe to notification about
> changes to wiki pages, and to notifications about additions to the wiki.
> Unfortunately, i didn't have time to get to that in the WikiForNow
> project.  As soon as i'm clear form a current project i *may* be able to
> concentrate on at least formulating a reasonable quick-and-dirty way to do
> notifications, and getting it done for the short term.  Whether or not
> it's me doing it, i think we're going to be bringing more attention to
> these issues.

"Opening" the development process itself could enhance the resources
available to you and solve this problem. However, I have more issues
with wikis than just the notification aspect. I think they limit
accessibility of data because they are really just big globs of text. I
personally feel the whole fishbowl concept has some flaws both in
technical and administrative implementation. 

I for one don't exactly know how to proceed beyond a certain point in
the fishbowl. Some of my proposals for example end with some thing like
this from DC: "I think we need to address this a different way, however
I don't have time to say exactly how right now". OK, so now what?

> > I know there has been talk of opening up the Zope CVS to outside
> > contributions, I personally think this is long overdue. In order for a
> > community development forum to really work, this would have to happen.
> This actually is high in our priorities, but the key players have been
> swamped.  From a discussion w/paul recently i think we'll be getting
> some more attention to doing this, very soon.

I understand, but this is the way to get some more resources on your
side in the long run. I for one will shed an entire frustration level
with Zope when this happens.

> I think the fishbowl, as it is, is a good significant move towards
> exposing the process and enabling involvement.  Mailling lists help
> conduct the collaboration.  However, more is needed to facilitate that
> process - selectively enabling checkins, doing notifications to make
> tracking of developments manageable, fleshing out the context
> (problems/big picture).  It's an incremental process, and we may have
> lapsed too long in progressing on those increments - perhaps we need
> to chart out some of these critical pieces, so we can better formulate
> how they're being attacked - and maybe enable more help with the
> increments.

I agree that the fishbowl is beneficial, if for nothing else than a
sounding board for the possible directions of Zope. But, like I
mentioned before, I think the community needs more involvement directly
with the development of its own tools like the fishbowl. I realize there
is a risk to DC of loosing some level of direct control, but I suggest
that a democratic development approach although less decisive and
centralized is superior to a despotism.
> I hope to have expore this some, internally, and have more to say
> about it next week.

I'll await further developments.

| Casey Duncan
| Kaivo, Inc.

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