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Baiju M wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Hanno Schlichting <ha...@hannosch.eu> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:56 AM, Baiju M <mba...@zeomega.com> wrote:
>>>         I would like to get your opinion about this position statement,
>>> as it involve the wider Zope ecosystem.  However, we tried to be
>>> diplomatic about other project's relationship with ZTK as we don't
>>> want to claim anything about others:
>>> http://wiki.zope.org/bluebream/BlueBreamName
>> Two things:
>> - Repoze is a brand name like Zope but not a particular project. BFG
>> is a web application framework. BFG was certainly never based on Zope
>> 3. But even the claim that it is based on the ZTK is far fetched. It
>> depends on zope.component, zope.configuration and their dependencies.
>> That's similar to Twisted depending on zope.interface or TurboGears
>> depending on zope.sqlalchemy and transaction. Presenting it as if the
>> dependency of BFG onto the ZTK is similar in scope to Grok or Zope2 is
>> misleading.
>> - Plone isn't a web application framework but a specific application.
>> Zope 2 is a web application framework. If you want to include Plone
>> into the graph, you have to put it at a different level than the other
>> things. And both the dependency on Zope 3 and the ZTK are mediated via
>> the Zope 2 dependency.
>> So a 2010 graph should read more like:
>> Plone
>> Zope2    Grok    BlueBream    BFG
>> ZTK
>> ZCA
>> Where there's a direct line from BFG to ZCA bypassing the ZTK. In the
>> 2008 version ZTK would be Zope 3 with BlueBream missing.
> Thanks for the feedback. I have changed the Repoze to BFG.
> But the lines are just to indicate that there is some relation.
> We tried to be very careful when talking about the relation
> as we don't want to claim anything, at the same time,
> it doesn't contradict anything in reality:
> For example:
> "Over time, other web frameworks, such as Grok / BFG evolved around
> Zope 3, which primarily utilize certain library packages from Zope 3
> and don't make use of the Zope 3 application server."
> In the case of Plone also, it's very true:
> "Other products, such as Plone also started to make use of the Zope 3
> component architecture and the accompanied packages"
> Also we emphasized:
> "We cannot officially speak for other projects, so you can check their
> documentation to understand the relationship with ZTK"
> Sorry, we don't have any plan to show the exact relationship between projects.

Channeling Chris here:

BFG can't truly be said to be a Zope3-derived framework:  it doesn't
*require* application developers to use the ZCA, altho[ugh it happens to
use the ZCA in its implementation (primarily as an optimization at this
point).  Its dependencies have never included more than a handful of
Zope3 packages (zope.interface, zope.component, zope.configuration, and

Its notions of a view is radically different than a Zope3 view, for
instance:  in BFG, a view is nearly always just a function or other
callable, and only rarely (primarily in migrated code) a class / factory
taking context and request and returning a "view object."

In 2010, *none* of the Zope3 technologies are "required knowlege" for a
BFG developer:  you can literally write a BFG app which imports
*nothing* from the zope.* namespace at all (nor ZODB and related
packages, etc.)

- --
Tres Seaver          +1 540-429-0999          tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"    http://palladion.com
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