Jonathan escribió:

To pour fuel on the flames...
-1 ZPT
Why... 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works! 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach. 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products. ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach. I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-) If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history. Just my 1-1/2 cents. Jonathan
    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Greg Fischer <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    *Cc:* <>
    *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
    *Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.
    Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
    graphics and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am
    using with Dojo right now)  What does Zope not provide these
    features "built-in"?

    And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right
    on <>, but I always find more on
    individual blogs or other google searches.
<>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and
    such, with comments?  That would be hot!  Better and easier than a
    wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I would say is, from my perspective,
    when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post
    on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo
    or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg would allow
    us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little
    flashy too.

    The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project
    have.  It shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they
will download it. I did.
    Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
    needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every
    time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very
    simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action.  ZPT is
    just plain confusing to me.  I hate to say this too, but I am
    doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that
    there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community.  And
    even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there
    is no hype about it, then it might.  And I don't want to keep
    using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many
    disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.  I wish there were
more hype about it.
    So, here's a big "wish" of mine too.  What if Zope was a
    *complete* framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the
    ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE,
    built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It
    would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql,
    Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase
    and configure a database adapter.  This would provide a web based,
    development framework like .NET using Visual Studio.  Only this
would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form
    editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be
    great.  I think we would have a KILLER APP!

    Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

    Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft
    surveys say a lot.  I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's
    great info.  Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
    Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000.  Cool!

    42000+ Sites in 2006

    6000+ Sites  in 2002

    Happy new year everyone!

    On 1/3/06, *Jonathan Cyr* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>

        Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking?  Is
        there even a problem?   Is Python growing or shrinking?  Is
        there any connection? <> seems to have been built as a
        community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc.  Is it
        working. has none of this functionality.

        Perhaps a site, similar to is in
        order, that provides a very small amount of "get started"

        Two Cents,


        Gert Thiel wrote:

Dear friends.

A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
terms of attention and recognized widespread.

Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
shortcommings of J2EE.

Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS

and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?

Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at <>.
Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
a look at
<> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
look at <> ‹ where isŠ You got it.

To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.

Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without

hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?

Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:

Make them love Zope at the very first look:

   * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and

   * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
     including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
     of success.

Bribe the managers:

   * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.

   * Include powerful XML processing facilities and
   * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.

Enable the beginners:

   * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹

     documentation is a must.
   * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
     mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
     one central location.

Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
framework but from its community.

And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.



Zope maillist  - <>
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - )

Jonathan Cyr

        Zope maillist  - <>
        **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
        (Related lists -


-- Greg Fischer
    1st Byte Solutions

    Zope maillist  -
    **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
    (Related lists - )


Zope maillist  -
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - )
Well, I don't use DTML for anything

I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday but forget these words because there are DTML and ZClasses fans on the list


Mis Cosas

Zope maillist  -
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - )

Reply via email to