On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Hafeliel wrote:

I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety,
and so I apologize for that in advance.  However,
despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all
poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make
a signifigant market penetration.

If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to

As you probably guessed, that's a wiki set up to
discuss where we went right, where we went wrong, and
what we could do to make a product that industry is
more apt to embrace.

What do you guys honestly think?  Is this a good idea?

I created an account but I can not add any text -- or, I suppose I should say that "I can't figure out how to add text".  edit gives me "you must be a member"... I have an account and I'm logged in...

So, I will add my reply here.

About this note: I hesitate sending it to this mailing list.  I'm sure it will cause a few bad feelings.  It would me if I was on the other side.  I honestly do not want to.  If I do offend you, please let me know.

About me: On a scale of 0 to 10 of Zope experience, I'm about a 2 -- maybe.  I've done one trivial "Contact Management" Zope 3 application.  I've managed to get zwiki inside Plone running on Zope 2.  I've read two books on Zope 3.  Thats about it.

Images: if you want simple adding data to images, go to Adobe and search for their standardized method.  They have a standardized method of adding attributes to any document.  You can define and add your own attributes.  Its based on rtf.

Zope Replacement: it seems a bit premature to me to be asking for a replacement.  Why not extend what is there?  I've not seen it "fail" any place that required a reject of the founding principles.

Apache Module: I'd question that.  It is so trivial to put Zope 3 behind apache that I don't see the advantage of forcing people to use Apache.  As an Apache module, I would have to compile it for my system.  If I'm on a Mac, that is not easy to do.  I've gone out and replaced all of my Apache stuff so its not so hard for me at this point but, generally, forcing people into compiling code AND using Apache seems really bad to me.  Another reason NOT to do this is development.  I can develop Zope on my laptop.  If it was Apache based, I'd have to crank up an apache server.  Not a huge deal but why force me to do that?

Language: At this point, python seems to have advantages to php.  I've used Perl since the dark ages but find Python  nicer.  I don't really know why though so please don't ask me to explain.

ZCML: I agree with Zope 3's principles of creating ZCML.  It is hard for me to use.  I don't think that is a Zope issue.  I wish it was easier.

Documentation: I would still like to have a separate Zope 3 reference book.  Something that can be printed.  Something that is "complete" (contains everything in the default zope 3 download).

Suggestion 1 for Zope 3: Make a more obvious, clean separation between Zope 2 and Zope 3 on the web sites.  Have separate web sites for example.  Personally, I would orphan Zope 2.  Whatever works on Zope 3, I would keep.  Whatever does not, I would "archive".  Bring over things from Zope 2 to Zope 3 as time permits but make the cut and let Zope 2 drift into history.  It may be that 99.999% of Zope 2 works in Zope 3.  I have no idea.  But my impression as a new beginner is that most (i.e. all) of it does not.

Suggestion 2 for Zope 3: document document document... I understand everyone is busy and everything is changing fast.  But, I find it really hard to break into the Zope 3 environment.  And, it may be that this is really why Zope 3 is not picking up more users faster.  I don't know.

Super Cool Things about Zope 3:
  1) TAL's: I did PHP without TALs last year.  It quickly became obvious to me that something else was needed.  My approach was the opposite: I wrote everything in PHP and had tiny PHP things to spit out the tags and attributes.  Not very viable since you can not use normal HTML editors to create and design your pages.  TAL's solves all those problems.  Who ever came up with that idea deserves a Nobel Prize.

2) The Zope Database: The fact I can just subclass Persistence and all that magic happens for me in the background is great.  And, looking and watching from the email conversations, it appears as if there is a growth path from trivial storage to full blown database backend support.

3) Python based.

4) Very modular and component design.

I hope this helps more than it hurts.

Perry Smith
Ease Software, Inc.

Low cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems

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