Aloha,

I think you might want a "both and" approach rather than an "either or" approach.


In which case Niels' comments re the ability to use both objects/object DB and relational DB in python/zope applications are highly relevant.

If you go with an object-based combination like python/zope/ZODB where you can also use/integrate relational data, then you can use each model/data approach where most appropriate for what you're building. It sounds like there may be some of both, as you describe an eventual "expert system" app.

If you use PHP or most any other HTML-munging/scripting platform that I'm aware of, you are crippled in terms of using 'true' OO programming methods (useful for an 'expert system') and object DB where they are most appropriate. Especially for the size and flexibility of what you are aiming for, a 'true' OO language seems essential.

In short, you don't have to do object DB *or* RDB - you can use both, if using a platform that supports that such as zope.

cheers,
John S.


On 12/05/2011 04:12 AM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:

Hi John and Fernando
Intuitively I feel that my project fits in with an Object DB, which is
why I have spent a lot of time trying to understand its methodology. But
now I'm more confused than ever.

To answer your questions -

Only an expert can perform data entry for the tools, obviously. Since I
have no clue how to enter data into mySQL or ZODB I have no idea what's
in store for me.

The ultimate goal is for the engine to become an expert system that is
capable of taking inputs, learning from mistakes, scraping data from
reports and from the internet, and become better and better at its
predictions. The logic engine will get better and more complex as more
tools are added - but once all the 'current' tools are added, the system
must be able to go 'solo', with an accuracy that reaches six sigma
levels. As Fernando has suggested, I will have to go with C/C++, or even
my own language in the future, but that day is far off.

I plan to start with 50 higher-level tools and try to build a prototype.
The front-end is really very simple. The choices available for the start
parameters and end parameters are pretty basic, and most of the logic
happens under the hood - probably at the back end if possible. Once I've
built this prototype, I will know whether mqSQL can handle scaling up
(in my particular case). If not, I can confidently invest in ZODB.

If I can make my position any clearer in order to get a conclusive
answer either way - I'll be glad to. Thanks again for your help. I
really am indebted to you guys.
sareesh


 > From: zope-requ...@zope.org
 > Subject: Zope Digest, Vol 91, Issue 2
 > To: zope@zope.org
 > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 12:00:02 +0000
 >
 > Send Zope mailing list submissions to
 > zope@zope.org
 >
 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
 > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 > zope-requ...@zope.org
 >
 > You can reach the person managing the list at
 > zope-ow...@zope.org
 >
 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 > than "Re: Contents of Zope digest..."
 >
 >
 > Today's Topics:
 >
 > 1. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Fernando Martins)
 > 2. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Sareesh Sudhakaran)
 > 3. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Fernando Martins)
 > 4. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (John Schinnerer)
 > 5. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Sareesh Sudhakaran)
 > 6. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Fernando Martins)
 > 7. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (John Schinnerer)
 > 8. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Niels Dettenbach)
 > 9. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Fernando)
 > 10. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Sareesh Sudhakaran)
 > 11. Re: Help in deciding approach to Web App (Niels Dettenbach)
 >
 >
 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 1
 > Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:28:36 +0100
 > From: Fernando Martins <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > To: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4edb6774.1050...@cmartins.nl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 09:52 AM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:
 > > Thanks Niels. Just to clarify:
 > > Does my particular instance fall under an OODBMS model or a RDBMS
 > > model (with ORM if necessary)?
 > >
 > >
 > Data modelling is a bit of an art and probably you could tackle your
 > problem with any approach. I think the important is for you to figure
 > out which model suits more your personality. No kidding.
 >
 > I would personally start with the RDBMS approach considering only the
 > information you provide. Also, you can easily use zope in combination
 > with a RDBMS. When you read the book, beware that zope has been changing
 > from a "through the web" approach, to a typical file system based
 > approach, which is a loss, but it seems to be what suits the needs of
 > the zope developers.
 >
 > The approach I use is:
 >
 > zpt page -> (one) Python Script -> (some) ZSQL Methods -> MySQL
 >
 > The zpt defines the layout of the pages, the ZSQL Methods retrieve the
 > data needed and the Python script massages the data to make it suitable
 > for the ZPT page. Or the other way around, from user input in a form to
 > storage in the database.
 >
 > The advantage of the relational approach is that it is a very well
 > understood model and although different people will still come to
 > different models there are sufficient objective guidelines out there
 > (e.g., the normalization rules, and then criteria for when to
 > denormalise) to help you along. Furthermore, there are lots of people in
 > db-related forums that can help you.
 >
 > Also, RDBMS provides you with a "standard" query language, SQL, which
 > plenty of systems and tools can use. In general, RDBMS gives you the
 > safest approach to keep your data and not loose it when you need to
 > migrate either the front-end or the back-end. This language is very
 > powerful and can avoid you a lot of low level programming.
 >
 > However, plenty of people can not deal well with SQL because it follows
 > a paradigm so different from the classic imperative programming. With
 > SQL, you specify the "what", with the other languages you specify the
 > "how". The advantage of the "what" is that you can do a lot of data
 > processing in a few lines of code. The problem with the "what" is that
 > because you don't know the "how" of it, you feel you don't have control
 > and you are led to say the language is "obscure" or "unreadable".
 >
 > However, even if you are not comfortable with the "what" (you have to
 > try to know), you can still rely on an library like SQLAlchemy to keep
 > you a bit in the comfort zone of the "how". So instead of learning SQL,
 > you need to learn the API of a specific library. Your choice. I
 > recommend the first by far.
 >
 > The real main issue with Relational is that it is a highly structured
 > data model. It allows you to keep high quality data but if you don't get
 > it right soon enough in the development cycle, some later changes can
 > have a huge impact in the application, requiring rewrites. Furthermore,
 > it works the best when you have many objects with the same properties.
 > If you have many entities all different from each other (the tools in
 > your case, maybe), then maybe a OODBMS might be better. But here, there
 > is no standard language, or standard whatever. Perosnally, I would avoid
 > as much as possible to put data in something like ZODB (I use it merely
 > to store and manage the application).
 >
 > The problem with your specific case is that it does not seem to be a
 > typical case of books and authors, which might be a risk for someone
 > without experience. The issue "Tool A might have only three fixed rpms -
 > 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000", is indeed
 > tricky. I suspect in general the needs of your system will be too
 > specific to be able to rely only on SQL queries. You would need to put a
 > lot of intelligence in the data (really highly structured) and it might
 > become unmanageable or not scalable.
 >
 > I guess you will need to put a lot of intelligence in the Python Script.
 > So, the ZSQL retrieves the relevant tool data and then makes the tool
 > choice. The knowledge of the meaning of the attributes is maintained in
 > programming.
 >
 > I should say I am not totally sure the Python Script is the best
 > approach here, in terms of management facilities. But Python is surely a
 > very good language due to its readability. However, you might need to
 > use External methods or a more typical file-system based Python approach.
 >
 > Or maybe you actually need to create a Domain Specific Language to
 > encode the intelligence needed for your tool selection process. If your
 > python code becomes repetitive, with patterns showing up, then a DSL
 > might be a good approach, but this might be too much engineering for you
 > at this stage. It looks like you are in a typical CIM scenario and I
 > remember handling a similar problem 20 years ago. I vaguely remember at
 > that time to use custom graph structures in C and the the intelligence
 > was coded in Lisp/Scheme. So, there is a big range of solutions to try
 > out :)
 >
 > If you have time, then the simple approach
 >
 > zpt page -> (one) Python Script -> (some) ZSQL Methods -> MySQL database
 >
 > might be a good starting point. You should not need to spend much time
 > to implement a prototype using this approach. In the worse case scenario
 > it helps you understand better your problem and what could be a better
 > approach with little investment. Essentially you try the classical
 > approach and if it does not work well, either you are doing something
 > wrong, or you have a better understanding of your needs and where to go.
 >
 > Good luck,
 > Fernando
 >
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111204/0ab00305/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 2
 > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 16:15:13 +0000
 > From: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > To: <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <snt128-w36aba1cb073f415600d972cf...@phx.gbl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
 >
 >
 >
 > Thanks Fernando! I really appreciate the time and effort you have put
in answering my query. My personality sides with Python but my hosting
provider does not support Django or Zope.
 > As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to
go with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? Can I just start out
with a framework like Symphony instead?
 > In the future I'll have to use either Python or C/C++ for my business
logic and math. But the focus now is to get a prototype out, and if I'm
doomed to change everything later I might as well start with the easiest
and most obvious. Is this a viable starting point compared to what you
have suggested? Or am I missing something?
 > -Sareesh
 > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:28:36 +0100
 > From: ferna...@cmartins.nl
 > To: ays...@hotmail.com
 > CC: n...@syndicat.com; zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 09:52 AM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > Thanks
 > Niels. Just to clarify:
 > Does
 > my particular instance fall under an OODBMS model or a RDBMS
 > model (with ORM if necessary)?
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Data modelling is a bit of an art and probably you could tackle your
 > problem with any approach. I think the important is for you to
 > figure out which model suits more your personality. No kidding.
 >
 >
 >
 > I would personally start with the RDBMS approach considering only
 > the information you provide. Also, you can easily use zope in
 > combination with a RDBMS. When you read the book, beware that zope
 > has been changing from a "through the web" approach, to a typical
 > file system based approach, which is a loss, but it seems to be what
 > suits the needs of the zope developers.
 >
 >
 >
 > The approach I use is:
 >
 >
 >
 > zpt page -> (one) Python Script -> (some) ZSQL Methods ->
 > MySQL
 >
 >
 >
 > The zpt defines the layout of the pages, the ZSQL Methods retrieve
 > the data needed and the Python script massages the data to make it
 > suitable for the ZPT page. Or the other way around, from user input
 > in a form to storage in the database.
 >
 >
 >
 > The advantage of the relational approach is that it is a very well
 > understood model and although different people will still come to
 > different models there are sufficient objective guidelines out there
 > (e.g., the normalization rules, and then criteria for when to
 > denormalise) to help you along. Furthermore, there are lots of
 > people in db-related forums that can help you.
 >
 >
 >
 > Also, RDBMS provides you with a "standard" query language, SQL,
 > which plenty of systems and tools can use. In general, RDBMS gives
 > you the safest approach to keep your data and not loose it when you
 > need to migrate either the front-end or the back-end. This language
 > is very powerful and can avoid you a lot of low level programming.
 >
 >
 >
 > However, plenty of people can not deal well with SQL because it
 > follows a paradigm so different from the classic imperative
 > programming. With SQL, you specify the "what", with the other
 > languages you specify the "how". The advantage of the "what" is that
 > you can do a lot of data processing in a few lines of code. The
 > problem with the "what" is that because you don't know the "how" of
 > it, you feel you don't have control and you are led to say the
 > language is "obscure" or "unreadable".
 >
 >
 >
 > However, even if you are not comfortable with the "what" (you have
 > to try to know), you can still rely on an library like SQLAlchemy to
 > keep you a bit in the comfort zone of the "how". So instead of
 > learning SQL, you need to learn the API of a specific library. Your
 > choice. I recommend the first by far.
 >
 >
 >
 > The real main issue with Relational is that it is a highly
 > structured data model. It allows you to keep high quality data but
 > if you don't get it right soon enough in the development cycle, some
 > later changes can have a huge impact in the application, requiring
 > rewrites. Furthermore, it works the best when you have many objects
 > with the same properties. If you have many entities all different
 > from each other (the tools in your case, maybe), then maybe a OODBMS
 > might be better. But here, there is no standard language, or
 > standard whatever. Perosnally, I would avoid as much as possible to
 > put data in something like ZODB (I use it merely to store and manage
 > the application).
 >
 >
 >
 > The problem with your specific case is that it does not seem to be a
 > typical case of books and authors, which might be a risk for someone
 > without experience. The issue "Tool A might have only three fixed
 > rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to
 > 2000", is indeed tricky. I suspect in general the needs of your
 > system will be too specific to be able to rely only on SQL queries.
 > You would need to put a lot of intelligence in the data (really
 > highly structured) and it might become unmanageable or not scalable.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > I guess you will need to put a lot of intelligence in the Python
 > Script. So, the ZSQL retrieves the relevant tool data and then makes
 > the tool choice. The knowledge of the meaning of the attributes is
 > maintained in programming.
 >
 >
 >
 > I should say I am not totally sure the Python Script is the best
 > approach here, in terms of management facilities. But Python is
 > surely a very good language due to its readability. However, you
 > might need to use External methods or a more typical file-system
 > based Python approach.
 >
 >
 >
 > Or maybe you actually need to create a Domain Specific Language to
 > encode the intelligence needed for your tool selection process. If
 > your python code becomes repetitive, with patterns showing up, then
 > a DSL might be a good approach, but this might be too much
 > engineering for you at this stage. It looks like you are in a
 > typical CIM scenario and I remember handling a similar problem 20
 > years ago. I vaguely remember at that time to use custom graph
 > structures in C and the the intelligence was coded in Lisp/Scheme.
 > So, there is a big range of solutions to try out :)
 >
 >
 >
 > If you have time, then the simple approach
 >
 >
 >
 > zpt page -> (one) Python Script -> (some) ZSQL Methods ->
 > MySQL database
 >
 >
 >
 > might be a good starting point. You should not need to spend much
 > time to implement a prototype using this approach. In the worse case
 > scenario it helps you understand better your problem and what could
 > be a better approach with little investment. Essentially you try the
 > classical approach and if it does not work well, either you are
 > doing something wrong, or you have a better understanding of your
 > needs and where to go.
 >
 >
 >
 > Good luck,
 >
 > Fernando
 >
 >
 >
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111204/82dedc39/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 3
 > Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:19:25 +0100
 > From: Fernando Martins <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > To: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4edbab9d.6050...@cmartins.nl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 05:15 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:
 > > As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to go
 > > with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? Can I just start out with
 > > a framework like Symphony instead?
 >
 > Well, if all you have is PHP + MySQL in your provider, there is no
 > "which is better" question, is it?
 >
 > You might want to look at http://phptal.org/ a library that provides a
 > templating system similar to ZPT. The advantage is the better separation
 > between presentation and business layers.
 >
 > Regards,
 > Fernando
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111204/39490090/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 4
 > Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 10:31:48 -1000
 > From: John Schinnerer <j...@eco-living.net>
 > To: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4edbd8b4.9090...@eco-living.net>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 >
 > Aloha,
 >
 > Very briefly, from what you describe, it looks like you are dealing with
 > large numbers of complex objects (your 'tools') that interact with each
 > other - and with some other elements that are going through this
 > workflow process? And a context for the process? ...not sure of that
part...
 >
 > In any case, this looks (to me anyhow) like a very object-oriented
 > system you are modeling so an object oriented approach and language
 > would seem most suitable. Python is one reasonable language option; zope
 > for the web publishing aspect of the project would fit well with that. I
 > haven't worked with other OO languages enough to usefully compare.
 >
 > It also sounds to me like the web publishing is the lesser part of
 > this...? That is, the workflow of interacting tools is the real 'app'
 > here, a process which does not all get shown somehow on a web page...or
 > does it? Or just the outcomes?
 >
 > LAMP platform is so common and cheap that it's all a lot of people know
 > about. It can be used well, and, it is all too easy to make horrible
 > hacks and Frankestein monster apps in PHP/MySQL.
 >
 > Meaning, a highly structured (yet powerful) OO programming language will
 > support you in avoiding that.
 >
 > Also, for development (or just to explore if python+zope might meet your
 > needs) you don't need any hosting, you can install python+zope on your
 > development system and try it out.
 >
 > best wishes...
 > John S.
 >
 >
 > On 12/03/2011 07:12 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:
 > > I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but
 > > I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time
constraint.
 > >
 > >
 > > *About the App:*
 > >
 > > The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI)
 > > that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of
 > > initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass
through
 > > many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something
 > > like a very complicated car wash.
 > >
 > > Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages
in the
 > > process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now,
and it
 > > is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing
 > > tools will also have version updates.
 > >
 > > Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the
tool.
 > > Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties. Some of these
tools
 > > are linked to each other - e.g if one tool is selected, there are
only n
 > > tools that can correspond to it for the next step in the process. I
also
 > > have the problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A
might
 > > have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have
 > > rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database
 > > without spelling out each number, as in the example above.
 > >
 > > The total number of tools needed for the process can be defined at the
 > > beginning, however, it will change as the application becomes more
 > > complex in the future. I plan to address every contingency in the
 > > process. The idea is - if the user inputs the initial parameters
and the
 > > desired outcome (another set of parameters), the app must find the
 > > 'best' path - sort of like a decision tree. The best path can be the
 > > fastest, cheapest, etc. I would like the user to choose what is
best for
 > > him/her.
 > >
 > > Unfortunately, parameters might change, relationships might change (but
 > > not regularly) - the 'rules' I will be using might be revised for
better
 > > accuracy in prediction.
 > >
 > > I also need to track each user's path and solutions' for future
 > > reference (but no personal details except username and email
address for
 > > logging in). Maybe when the app is up and running, I'd like to make it
 > > more democratic, with users contributing to refining the logic/rules
 > > involved.
 > >
 > > If possible, I would also like the app to output a graphical flowchart
 > > at the end showing the workflow with all tools grouped in an easy to
 > > understand layout.
 > >
 > >
 > > *My questions:*
 > >
 > > 1. Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an
 > > Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my
 > > particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB.
 > > But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit?
 > > 2. Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such
 > > a project in ZOPE. Which is the best place to start learning for a
 > > newbie?
 > > 3. Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports
 > > Zope fully but is not expensive?
 > > 4. Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to
 > > output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be
 > > better served programming it from scratch with Python?
 > >
 > > I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I
 > > have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers.
 > > Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL.
 > >
 > >
 > > Adam
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
 > > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
 > > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
 > > (Related lists -
 > > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 > > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
 >
 > --
 > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
 > --------------------------------------------
 > - Eco-Living -
 > Whole Systems Design Services
 > People - Place - Learning - Integration
 > j...@eco-living.net
 > http://eco-living.net
 >
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 5
 > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 03:49:29 +0000
 > From: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > To: <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <snt128-w49bfb2095e7cde4712553dcf...@phx.gbl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
 >
 >
 > Thanks Fernando. I would choose ZOPE or Django and a new provider at
the drop of a hat - if someone can confirm if that's the way to go.
However, since, there are too many grey areas, it might be better if I
stuck to what I have and see how things turn out. Once again, thanks for
your support. Appreciate it!
 > - Sareesh
 >
 >
 > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:19:25 +0100
 > From: ferna...@cmartins.nl
 > To: ays...@hotmail.com
 > CC: n...@syndicat.com; zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 05:15 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me
 > to go with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? Can I just
 > start out with a framework like Symphony instead?
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Well, if all you have is PHP + MySQL in your provider, there is no
 > "which is better" question, is it?
 >
 >
 >
 > You might want to look at http://phptal.org/ a library that provides
 > a templating system similar to ZPT. The advantage is the better
 > separation between presentation and business layers.
 >
 >
 >
 > Regards,
 >
 > Fernando
 >
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111205/fa182120/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 6
 > Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 08:56:39 +0100
 > From: Fernando Martins <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > To: j...@eco-living.net
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4edc7937.1020...@cmartins.nl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 09:31 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
 > > In any case, this looks (to me anyhow) like a very object-oriented
 > > system you are modeling so an object oriented approach and language
 > > would seem most suitable.
 >
 > And how would you create (and update) objects in Python for:
 >
 > "at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as
 > newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version
updates.
 >
 > Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool.
 > Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties."
 >
 > Regards,
 > Fernando
 >
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 7
 > Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 23:48:36 -1000
 > From: John Schinnerer <j...@eco-living.net>
 > To: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4edc9374.2050...@eco-living.net>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 >
 > On 12/04/2011 09:56 PM, Fernando Martins wrote:
 > > On 12/04/2011 09:31 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
 > >> In any case, this looks (to me anyhow) like a very object-oriented
 > >> system you are modeling so an object oriented approach and language
 > >> would seem most suitable.
 > >
 > > And how would you create (and update) objects in Python for:
 > >
 > > "at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as
 > > newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version
updates.
 > >
 > > Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the
tool.
 > > Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties."
 >
 > How familiar are you with OOP?
 >
 > What I mean is, when I read your high-level description of what you want
 > to do, I imagine objects interacting with other. In your "car wash"
 > example I see that, for instance. Or any kind of work-flow, which is
 > what this sounds like to me. A state machine.
 >
 > Each tool is an object; it knows what its properties and abilities and
 > possible states are and can communicate them to other objects and can
 > accept and act on communication from other objects. In that way the
 > objects interact with one another to do whatever it is you build them to
 > do.
 >
 > I'm thinking of your "car wash" metaphor. In a car wash there are a
 > variety of elements (objects) that communicate with one another to move
 > the car through and to wash it as it moves through. Simple example:
 >
 > * mechanism that pulls or pushes the car through
 > * mechanism that sprays it with water and soap
 > * mechanism that scrubs and wipes and rubs it
 > * mechanism that sprays it with rinse water
 > * drying mechanism(s)
 >
 > These all need to signal one another so they do the right thing at the
 > right time. Spray (or scrub or blow hot air) only when the car is in the
 > right place for each.
 >
 > If some tools can be built by adding to/extending other tools, that is
 > an object-friendly situation, since enhancing an existing tool to make
 > another that you need saves you having to create all tools from scratch.
 >
 > In the car wash, maybe the different sized scrubbers used are all made
 > by bolting together two or more of the smallest size scrubber. Maybe in
 > parallel, maybe in series, depends on what is needed.
 > Maybe the same scrubber controller can have different size brushes
 > attached to it.
 >
 > In short, an object - tool - is code and data that interacts with other
 > tools (other entities of code and data).
 >
 > An upgrade to a tool would involve changing the code and/or data that
 > constitutes the tool. If that introduces some new way of interacting
 > that other tools need to also know, then you add that to those tools
also.
 >
 > Adding more tools means coding them. If they can be based on existing
 > tools, so much the easier (and more object-appropriate).
 >
 > So that's some high-level information about an object-oriented approach
 > to what I think your project is about.
 >
 > Tthe flexibility you appear to need as the system grows may be
 > problematic for an RDB. And, my bias is OO, so perhaps someone who
 > thinks in RDB-space can describe at high level how this would look in an
 > RDB implmentation.
 >
 > cheers,
 > John S.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
 > --------------------------------------------
 > - Eco-Living -
 > Whole Systems Design Services
 > People - Place - Learning - Integration
 > j...@eco-living.net
 > http://eco-living.net
 >
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 8
 > Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 11:25:18 +0100
 > From: Niels Dettenbach <n...@syndicat.com>
 > To: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>, zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <4139605.n9LzKl54jI@gongo>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
 >
 > Am Sonntag, 4. Dezember 2011, 16:15:13 schrieben Sie:
 > > As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to
go with
 > > PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy?
 >
 > ...just from my experience:
 >
 > PHP is - for different, but mainly technical/historical reasons -
very widely
 > spread within web applications, one major reason was/is i.e. the large
 > (because "easy") availability on low cost hosting environments in the
past -
 > but the most advantages was/are on the side of the hosting providers....
 >
 > PHP might be easier to learn then other languages or frameworks, but
 > maintaining large / complex applications / software projects within
PHP could
 > be a real mess.
 >
 > We develop nearly any web application with Zope / ZODB since >= 10
years but
 > are a hosting company byself - so we was not bound to PHP as many other
 > internet hosting users in the past. A colleagues company produces
very high
 > level expert systems on Perl and Catalyst - requiring high skilled Perl
 > programmers.
 >
 > >From my experience developing within Zope / ZODB (with Python, DTML
and/or
 > ZPT) allows very high quality products within very short timeframes
and even
 > further maintaining the project is relative ressource efficient -
especially
 > compared to PHP.
 >
 > Most web application data structures (i.e. a "simple" web page) fit's
much
 > better by a oo object strategy then a relational (RDBMS) one.
 >
 > The major typical ressource hole within typical PHP+SQL web
applications or
 > i.e. a CMS solution is the translation of typical data objects into
tables and
 > vice versa. Producing i.e. one "simple" CMS page within a PHP-SQL CMS
easily
 > could trigger hundreds of SQL requests into many different tables - a
 > significant overhead which has to implemented by developers and
handled by the
 > machines.
 >
 > But this is my view onto the issue - just my two cents...
 >
 >
 >
 > cheers,
 >
 >
 > Niels.
 >
 > --
 > ---
 > Niels Dettenbach
 > Syndicat IT&Internet
 > http://www.syndicat.com/
 > -------------- next part --------------
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 > Name: signature.asc
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 > URL:
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 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 9
 > Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 10:28:41 +0000
 > From: "Fernando" <ferna...@cmartins.nl>
 > To: zope@zope.org, j...@eco-living.net
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <20111205102842.01a806f1f0...@bmail04.one.com>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
 >
 > On Dec 5, 2011 09:48 "John Schinnerer" <j...@eco-living.net> wrote:
 >
 > > On 12/04/2011 09:56 PM, Fernando Martins wrote:
 > > > On 12/04/2011 09:31 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
 > > > > In any case, this looks (to me anyhow) like a very object-oriented
 > > > > system you are modeling so an object oriented approach and
 > > > > language
 > > > > would seem most suitable.
 > > >
 > > > And how would you create (and update) objects in Python for:
 > > >
 > > > "at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future
 > > > as
 > > > newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version
 > > > updates.
 > > >
 > > > Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the
 > > > tool.
 > > > Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties."
 > >
 > > How familiar are you with OOP?
 > >
 > >
 > I think you are confusing me with the OP. And you did not answer my
 > question. Are you recommending that a programmer codes all these objects
 > by hand in Python?
 >
 > The know-how of what constitutes a tool, their properties and even the
 > tool selection criteria is not developer know-how. Therefore, this
 > information should be defined outside the program in way that the tool
 > expert(s) can manage it. Which leads us to some storage solution, an RDB
 > being the most common.
 >
 > Since, as I pointed out before, SQL most likely would not be able to do
 > the tool selection alone, Python would merely load the data from the
 > external source and create objects and expertise on the fly.
 >
 > Anyway, I agree with you that the main issue does not seem to be the web
 > publishing solution, but rather how to represent the tool information
 > and how to do tool selection, which is off-topic.
 >
 > Regards,
 > Fernando
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111205/c1f793c1/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 10
 > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 11:37:46 +0000
 > From: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > To: <n...@syndicat.com>, <zope@zope.org>
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <snt128-w1746b2101f6ddc4445ef07cf...@phx.gbl>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
 >
 >
 >
 > Hi NielsI agree with you, even though I have no experience.
 > But I'm restricted by hosting options for Zope at the moment, and
will revert to Python once the project is deployed - and when I figure
out whether mySQL is good enough or not. I hate having to type all those
extra characters in php though.sareesh
 >
 >
 > > From: n...@syndicat.com
 > > To: ays...@hotmail.com; zope@zope.org
 > > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 11:25:18 +0100
 > >
 > > Am Sonntag, 4. Dezember 2011, 16:15:13 schrieben Sie:
 > > > As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me
to go with
 > > > PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy?
 > >
 > > ...just from my experience:
 > >
 > > PHP is - for different, but mainly technical/historical reasons -
very widely
 > > spread within web applications, one major reason was/is i.e. the large
 > > (because "easy") availability on low cost hosting environments in
the past -
 > > but the most advantages was/are on the side of the hosting
providers....
 > >
 > > PHP might be easier to learn then other languages or frameworks, but
 > > maintaining large / complex applications / software projects within
PHP could
 > > be a real mess.
 > >
 > > We develop nearly any web application with Zope / ZODB since >= 10
years but
 > > are a hosting company byself - so we was not bound to PHP as many
other
 > > internet hosting users in the past. A colleagues company produces
very high
 > > level expert systems on Perl and Catalyst - requiring high skilled
Perl
 > > programmers.
 > >
 > > From my experience developing within Zope / ZODB (with Python, DTML
and/or
 > > ZPT) allows very high quality products within very short timeframes
and even
 > > further maintaining the project is relative ressource efficient -
especially
 > > compared to PHP.
 > >
 > > Most web application data structures (i.e. a "simple" web page)
fit's much
 > > better by a oo object strategy then a relational (RDBMS) one.
 > >
 > > The major typical ressource hole within typical PHP+SQL web
applications or
 > > i.e. a CMS solution is the translation of typical data objects into
tables and
 > > vice versa. Producing i.e. one "simple" CMS page within a PHP-SQL
CMS easily
 > > could trigger hundreds of SQL requests into many different tables - a
 > > significant overhead which has to implemented by developers and
handled by the
 > > machines.
 > >
 > > But this is my view onto the issue - just my two cents...
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > cheers,
 > >
 > >
 > > Niels.
 > >
 > > --
 > > ---
 > > Niels Dettenbach
 > > Syndicat IT&Internet
 > > http://www.syndicat.com/
 >
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111205/6158d5fe/attachment-0001.html>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > Message: 11
 > Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 12:52:19 +0100
 > From: Niels Dettenbach <n...@syndicat.com>
 > To: Sareesh Sudhakaran <ays...@hotmail.com>
 > Cc: zope@zope.org
 > Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
 > Message-ID: <1576320.GQZfeFGCSs@gongo>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
 >
 > Am Montag, 5. Dezember 2011, 11:37:46 schrieb Sareesh Sudhakaran:
 > > But I'm restricted by hosting options for Zope at the moment, and will
 > > revert to Python once the project is deployed - and when I figure out
 > > whether mySQL is good enough or not. I hate having to type all
those extra
 > > characters in php though.sareesh
 >
 > If i talk about Zope / Python i mean Zope (with Zope Python Script
Objects
 > and/or external (Python) Methods). At a earlier stage Zope devels
discussed
 > for integrating ingres or another RDBMS natively into Zope - but this
is not
 > longer the case as there are many Zope adapters / integrations /
products
 > available for different major RDBMS like MySQL or Postgres.
 >
 > For the data structures where you have to handle large tables MySQL
would be
 > the first choice while oo data structures would preferrably go into
your ZODB.
 > I.e. we handle large amounts of user data records within MySQL while
all of
 > the web content objects or even complex shopping products are handled
within
 > ZODB - both within the same Shopping Cart application. This all
depends highly
 > from you data model. By theory you are able to handle both in just on
of the
 > DB solutions.
 >
 > With Zope you have many options to use external database solutions
within your
 > Zope based application.
 >
 >
 > best regards,
 >
 >
 > Niels.
 > --
 > ---
 > Niels Dettenbach
 > Syndicat IT&Internet
 > http://www.syndicat.com/
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
 > Name: signature.asc
 > Type: application/pgp-signature
 > Size: 836 bytes
 > Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
 > URL:
<http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20111205/9bfcbc3a/attachment-0001.sig>
 >
 > ------------------------------
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
 >
 >
 >
 > End of Zope Digest, Vol 91, Issue 2
 > ***********************************


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--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
--------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Whole Systems Design Services
People - Place - Learning - Integration
j...@eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net
_______________________________________________
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