This thread has been killed. Let's end this discussion please. Continue it via private email, start another meta-list for statistical analysis of postings on this list, or whatever ;-p
thanks! ben On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Eric Burton wrote: > >> I apologize: 1/16. Which, to be fair, is half as many, and somewhat >> diminishes the point I was trying to make. ,_, >> > > Eric, *please* read the whole of the post before you comment! Of the 58 > matches, in all but two of the cases the word was used by someone else and I > just quoted it, or it was used in such a way that it had no emotional > content whatsoever - for example saying that some probability was "stupidly > small". Of the two remaining cases, one was an accidental insult that I > apologized for straight away, and the other was the kind of situation where > anyone would have used the word ... and even then, it was not directed at > the person I was talking to, but at an anonymous group of people. > > Richard Loosemore > > > > > > On 8/3/08, Eric Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> David, in the spirit of scientific objectivity, I just did a search for >>>> the word "stupid" in all >>>> of the 811 messages that I have ever posted to the AGI list. >>>> There were 58 matches, and I just laboriously analyzed every one of >>>> them. >>>> >>> This is off the cuff but, Richard, if 1/8 of your messages included >>> the word 'stupid', this could explain why the general consensus is >>> that you've been insulting people's intelligence. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/3/08, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>>> Ben Goertzel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Goodness ... I find this whole thread has gotten a bit over-the-top ... >>>>> but I guess it's at least humorous, in a perverse sort of way... >>>>> >>>>> For sure: the biggest obstacle in the way of human intellect creating >>>>> superhuman AGI, is humans' emotional nature ;-p >>>>> >>>> I am not sure I understand this response at all. >>>> >>>> Some serious accusations were made, so I checked them. >>>> >>>> The accusations were derogatory, and they turned out to be unfounded. >>>> >>>> You are saying that this is humorous? >>>> >>>> >>>> Richard Loosemore >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> David Clark wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Richard: >>>>> >>>>> I was one of the first people to help you get on the AGI list >>>>> years ago and I have appreciated many of your emails but Ben's >>>>> comments below are right on the money. >>>>> >>>>> Although I don't agree with many of the technical points made by >>>>> Ed Porter, he is obviously very intelligent (as are you) and has >>>>> much interesting information and enthusiasm to bring to the >>>>> table concerning AGI. I look forward to his emails even more >>>>> than most of the other posters on this list. >>>>> >>>>> I for one, very much appreciate the effort made by Ben in >>>>> writing this email and I would appreciate more information on >>>>> AGI and less chest thumping and ego in the emails. >>>>> >>>>> Calling other people's ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same >>>>> as calling other people the same and it hurts just as much. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> >>>>> Several people have repeated the accusation that I am guilty of >>>>> namecalling and engaging in personal attacks that are just as >>>>> disgraceful as those that Ed Porter just delivered. >>>>> >>>>> You repeat the accusation yourself when you say "Calling other >>>>> people's ideas stupid, ridiculous etc IS the same as calling other >>>>> people the same." >>>>> >>>>> David, in the spirit of scientific objectivity, I just did a search >>>>> for the word "stupid" in all of the 811 messages that I have ever >>>>> posted to the AGI list. >>>>> >>>>> There were 58 matches, and I just laboriously analyzed every one of >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> Of the 58 total, 41 were completely neutral references to some >>>>> abstract thing that was 'stupid', or to phrases like 'stupidly >>>>> simple', with no bearing on anything that a person on the list said >>>>> (for example I once said "what if a stupid AI hacker were to..."). >>>>> >>>>> On 2 occasions I responded to Ed Porter by denying his accusations, >>>>> and the word was not used against him. >>>>> >>>>> On one occasion I quoted Ed Porter saying to me "Despite your >>>>> statement to the contrary --- despite your "FURY" --- I did get your >>>>> point. Not everybody beside Richard Loosemore is stupid." This was >>>>> intented to be a mild insult directed at me, although it is kind of >>>>> confused (he meant to say "intelligent", so I suspect that this was >>>>> a Freudian slip). >>>>> >>>>> On 12 occasions the word was used by someone else, and I just quoted >>>>> it. The other person was not directing the word at me. >>>>> >>>>> On one occasion I used the word to refer, in the abstract, to some >>>>> people on the SL4 list who had speculated that I may have fabricated >>>>> my degree qualifications. This was NOT directed at the person I was >>>>> talking to, and it was fully justified by the estraordinary behavior >>>>> of the people involved. Here is the exact quote: "(Sorry for the >>>>> plug, but you know the kind of stupid nonsense I have had to take >>>>> from some unmentionable amateurs on these lists who attack arguments >>>>> by making libelous accusations about a person's qualifications and >>>>> credentials)". >>>>> >>>>> On one occasion I deliverd an indirect insult by saying that "[The >>>>> mathematical terms] "Rings" and "Models" are appropriated terms, but >>>>> the mathematicians involved would never be so stupid as to confuse >>>>> them with the real things. Marcus Hutter and yourself are doing >>>>> precisely that." I did not intend the rudeness, it slipped out as >>>>> an accident of the way I was phrasing my thoughts, and when Ben >>>>> pointed out that this was rude, I immediately accepted the blame and >>>>> apologized with these words: "You got me bang to rights there >>>>> guv'nor: I apologize for the "s" word. Please re-read, with the >>>>> word "naive" substituted instead." >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> So it seems that when we look at the evidence for me using this one >>>>> word "stupid" to criticize other people's ideas, there was only one >>>>> occasion. And even then it was just an accident of phrasing and it >>>>> was implied, not direct. And, to top it all, I immediately >>>>> apologized for the error. >>>>> >>>>> I have just done a lot of work to discover these statistics, and I >>>>> think it would be fair to say that there is not a shred of evidence >>>>> that I am in the habit of accusing anyone of being stupid, or even >>>>> that I use the word 'stupid' to describe their ideas. >>>>> >>>>> What do you suppose would happen if we went and looked to see how >>>>> many times I call other people's ideas "ridiculous"? >>>>> >>>>> Here you are: 31 matches. Most of them neutral comments like >>>>> "ridiculously small", except for three that were pretty mild >>>>> comments and one serious argument: >>>>> >>>>> (1) "... they then produce ridiculous definitions, like >>>>> Hutter's...". >>>>> >>>>> (2) "I was really trying to make the point that a statement like >>>>> "The singularity WILL end the human race" is completely ridiculous." >>>>> >>>>> (3) "That is just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of >>>>> thin air. The first time I read this paper I found the whole thing >>>>> too ridiculous to read after the first few times this happened." >>>>> >>>>> (4) One use of 'ridiculous' to respond to a damning insult and a >>>>> slew of false criticisms from Josh Hall - he had said "I find your >>>>> argument quotidian and lacking in depth...". Although I should not >>>>> have been so offended, I was. I responded to this insult by saying >>>>> "You said things about complex systems that were, quite frankly, >>>>> ridiculous: Turing- machine equivalence, for example, has nothing to >>>>> do with this.". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So in a total of 811 posts there were only five places where I used >>>>> the word 'stupid' or the word 'ridiculous'. One was an accident >>>>> that I immediately apologized for. Two uses of 'ridiculous' were >>>>> extremely mild, not directed at the person I was talking to, and >>>>> both of them were pretty reasonable given the topic. One other use >>>>> of 'ridiculous' was completely justificable (item 2 above). >>>>> >>>>> There was just one time when I used the word 'ridiculous' in a >>>>> direct and angry attack on another person's statements, and that was >>>>> after the other person had suddenly come out with a deliberate >>>>> insult. >>>>> >>>>> Do you feel that this level of abusive behavior on my part justifies >>>>> your comment that "Calling other people's ideas stupid, ridiculous >>>>> etc IS the same as calling other people the same."? Bear in mind >>>>> that in the course of yesterday evening Ed Porter threw at me a >>>>> total of 14 personal insults, all of them of a type that I have >>>>> never, ever used. >>>>> >>>>> Do you really, genuinely believe that when I say something like >>>>> "That is just one example of how he pulls conclusions out of thin >>>>> air. The first time I read this paper I found the whole thing too >>>>> ridiculous to read after the first few times this happened", this >>>>> behavior of mine is just as disgraceful as comments directed >>>>> straight at my face like "It is a shame your intelligence is not >>>>> freed from the childishness, and neediness, and dishonesty of your >>>>> ego", and "if you are at all concerned with honesty and truth --- >>>>> rather than personal pomposity ..."? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Richard Loosemore >>>>> >>>>> P.S. If you want me to give you a copy of all the posts I have >>>>> written, so you can analyze them for other words, please contact me >>>>> off list and I will send them to you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>> agi >>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >>>>> Director of Research, SIAI >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> >>>>> "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be >>>>> first >>>>> overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | Modify >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>>>> Your Subscription [Powered by Listbox] <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> agi >>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>>> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=108809214-a0d121 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
