"Are you sure it was A. Sloman who wrote or said that? From where I'm sitting it looks like it was Margaret Boden who wrote it. But then again, I am one of those people who sometimes make mistakes." Jim Bromer
And this is indeed another of your mistakes: http://onthehuman.org/2010/05/can-computer-models-help-us-to-understand-human-creativity/ see [ironically] his: CREATIVITY AS A RESPONSE TO COMBINATORICS and nb. his previous paras [wh. I hadn't fully noted] and wh. also agree with me: "All this is a brief introduction to the study of the many ways in which biological evolution was under pressure to provided humans and other animals with information-processing mechanisms that are capable of acquiring many different kinds of information and then developing novel ways of using that information to solve any of millions of different problems without having to learn solutions by trial and error, without having to be taught, and without having to imitate behaviour of others. I.e. they are P-creative solutions. I conjecture that these highly practical forms of creativity, which are obviously important in crafts, engineering, science, and many everyday activities at home or at work, are closely related to the mechanisms that also produce artistic forms of creativity." From: Jim Bromer Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:57 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] The problem with AGI per Sloman On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Mike Tintner <tint...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: [BTW Sloman's quote is a month old] Are you sure it was A. Sloman who wrote or said that? From where I'm sitting it looks like it was Margaret Boden who wrote it. But then again, I am one of those people who sometimes make mistakes. Jim Bromer On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Mike Tintner <tint...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: [BTW Sloman's quote is a month old] I think he means what I do - the end-problems that an AGI must face. Please name me one true AGI end-problem being dealt with by any AGI-er - apart from the toybox problem. As I've repeatedly said- AGI-ers simply don't address or discuss AGI end-problems. And they do indeed start with "solutions" - just as you are doing - re the TSP problem and the problem of combinatorial complexity, both of wh. have in fact nothing to do with AGI, and for neither of wh.. can you provide a single example of a relevant AGI problem. One could not make up this total avoidance of the creative problem, And AGI-ers are not just shockingly but obscenely narrow in their disciplinarity/ the range of their problem interests - maths, logic, standard narrow AI computational problems, NLP, a little robotics and that's about it - with by my rough estimate some 90% of human and animal real world problemsolving of no interest to them. That esp. includes their chosen key fields of language, conversation and vision - all of wh. are much more the province of the *arts* than the sciences, when it comes to AGI The fact that creative, artistic problemsolving presents a totally different paradigm to that of programmed, preplanned problemsolving, is of no interest to them - because they lack what educationalists would call any kind of metacognitive (& interdisciplinary) "scaffolding" to deal with it. It doesn't matter that programming itself, and developing new formulae and theorems - (all the forms IOW of creative maths, logic, programming, science and technology) - the very problemsolving upon wh. they absolutely depend.- also come under "artistic problemsolving". So there is a major need for broadening AI & AGI education both in terms of culturally creative problemsolving and true culture-wide multidisciplinarity. From: Jim Bromer Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:05 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] The problem with AGI per Sloman Both of you are wrong. (Where did that quote come from by the way. What year did he write or say that.) An inadequate understanding of the problems is exactly what has to be expected by researchers (both professional and amateurs) when they are facing a completely novel pursuit. That is why we have endless discussions like these. What happened over and over again in AI research is that the amazing advances in computer technology always seemed to suggest that similar advances in AI must be just off the horizon. And the reality is that there have been major advances in AI. In the 1970's a critic stated that he wouldn't believe that AI was possible until a computer was able to beat him in chess. Well, guess what happened and guess what conclusion he did not derive from the experience. One of the problems with critics is that they can be as far off as those whose optimism is absurdly unwarranted. If a broader multi-disciplinary effort was the obstacle to creating AGI, we would have AGI by now. It should be clear to anyone who examines the history of AI or the present day reach of computer programming that a multi-discipline effort is not the key to creating effective AGI. Computers have become pervasive in modern day life, and if it was just a matter of getting people with different kinds of interests involved, it would have been done by now. It is a little like saying that the key to safe deep sea drilling is to rely on the expertise of companies that make billions and billions of dollars and which stand to lose billions by mistakes. While that should make sense, if you look a little more closely, you can see that it doesn't quite work out that way in the real world. Jim Bromer On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Mike Tintner <tint...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: "One of the problems of AI researchers is that too often they start off with an inadequate understanding of the problems and believe that solutions are only a few years away. We need an educational system that not only teaches techniques and solutions, but also an understanding of problems and their difficulty — which can come from a broader multi-disciplinary education. That could speed up progress." A. 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