Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a
recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and
Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can
find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page.
By the way, Hintz claimed to have "invented" the English guitar. I
think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when
he moved to England... andy r
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian
church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC).
This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was
indeed
originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter
reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut
(Saxony)
in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary
hub.
Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late
17thC,
then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd
probably
have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian
locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless
the
mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that
is
through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been
known
in Saxony.
What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that
melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which
is, of
course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers.
And
here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC
sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger
plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum.
Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the
Moravian
church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about
this?
I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link.
Martyn
)--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford <[2]lutewo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
From: Andrew Rutherford <[3]lutewo...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM
Dear folks,
Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the
Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship.
There
are references to people playing citterns in various other settings,
such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what
appear
to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and
run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands
of
Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a
real Moravian!)
By "Moravian" we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not
necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in
Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all
over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the
1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I
think
they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were
particularly important.
The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first
page,
I think.
And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in
Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs).
It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength.
andy r
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson
<[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Dear Andrew and Stuart,
Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the
instrument
intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho'
most
mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar
intervals
(except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there
are a
number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one
such.
And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and
heartland of
the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of
surviving
mandora tablatures in monasteries there.
Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary
mandora
tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the
cittern of
the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common
instrument? -
more so than the popular mandora?
Martyn
--- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig
<[2][6]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com>
wrote:
From: Andrew Hartig <[3][7]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com>
Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
To: [4][8]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM
I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for
performance.
I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as "music".
I
believe the permission should be sought only for the
reproduction
of
the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would
need
to
seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a
photograph as part of a book).
Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all
of
those who have taken an interest in this music!
Andrew
At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote:
Hello Stuart,
That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300
years
old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more
rights".
I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem.
Damien
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[1][5][9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Andrew Hartig"
<[2][6][10]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com>
Cc: <[3][7][11]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote:
Andrew Hartig wrote:
Dear all,
Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript
book
(BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for
6-course
cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take
some
photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the
Moravian
Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of
the
book are now available for public download from my web site.
I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB).
You
can
get to it from the "Music Files" page of the Renaissance
Cittern
Site,
[1][4][8][12]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
(scroll
down
to the "box" for 18th century music), where perhaps you may
also
find something else of interest.
Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine
people
of
the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together
to
make this possible!
-Andrew
Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's
lots
to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is
perhaps
an
ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung?
The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full,
with
voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a
quick
recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe
tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the
tuning
isn't fully chordal.
[2][5][9][13]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
(deleted -
just
read
"The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or
published
without the consent of the Moravian Archives." Sorry!)
And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a
rather
glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!):
[3][6][10][14]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
(deleted)
I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the
English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't
seen
his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora
papers
but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender
for
what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern
in
Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar'
fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in
'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name
correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's
the
Bunsold tablature and now this.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
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References
1. [8][13][17]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
2. [9][14][18]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
3. [10][15][19]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
4.
[11][16][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. [12][17][21]http://www.avg.com/
--
References
1.
[18][22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworl
d.co
m
2.
[19][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@the
ater
[24]ofmusic.com
3..
[20][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dart
mout
[26]h.edu
4. [21][27]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
5. [22][28]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
6. [23][29]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
7.
[24][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. [25][31]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
9. [26][32]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
10. [27][33]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
11.
[28][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. [29][35]http://www.avg.com/
Send instant messages to your online friends
[36]http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
References
1.
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo
.co.uk
2.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofm
usic.com
3.
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofm
usic.com
4.
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
5.
[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
6.
[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofm
usic.com
7.
[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
8. [44]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
9. [45]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
10. [46]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
11. [47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. [48]http://www.avg.com/
13. [49]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
14. [50]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
15. [51]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
16. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. [53]http://www.avg.com/
18.
[54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.co
m
19.
[55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theater
ofmusic.com
20.
[56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmout
h.edu
21. [57]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
22. [58]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
23. [59]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
24. [60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. [61]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
26. [62]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
27. [63]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
28. [64]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. [65]http://www.avg.com/
--
References
1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. mailto:lutewo...@gmail.com
3. mailto:lutewo...@gmail.com
4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. mailto:cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
7. mailto:cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
8. mailto:cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
10. mailto:cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
11. mailto:cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
13. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
14. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
16. http://www.avg.com/
17. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
18. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
19. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://www.avg.com/
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.co
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theater
24. http://ofmusic.com/
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmout
26. http://h.edu/
27. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
28. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
29. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
32. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
33. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
35. http://www.avg.com/
36. http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
38.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
39.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
42.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
44. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
45. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
46. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
47. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
48. http://www.avg.com/
49. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
50. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
51. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
53. http://www.avg.com/
54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
55.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com
56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu
57. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
58. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
59. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
60. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
61. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/
62. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3
63. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3
64. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
65. http://www.avg.com/
