I was planning to teach Japanese rules (because that's what the books
use). I got the sense from the earlier messages in this list that the
virtual playout is not ad hoc.
David Fotland says:
If we disagree on the group status, you get to play first and make
it live.
If you fail to make it live, then we now agree on the status of the
group,
and we restore the position to what it was when we both passed, and
score
it.
Hideki Kato says:
After the end of
game, the players can continue play to check the stones are really
dead, if necessary. This procedure does not affect the score if the
stone are really dead.
(It's not actually clear in this comment whether the playout is
unwound afterward.)
Nick Wedd says:
Your stubborn insistence does not cause a restart of the game (a
"resumption", article 9.3). It causes a confirmation phase
(article 10.4), which is unwound after its result has been found.
I must not be looking at the same version of the rules. From http://
www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html (to which the AGA site
links as an explanation of Japanese rules):
Article 9. End of the game
1. When a player passes his move and his opponent passes in
succession, the game stops.
2. After stopping, the game ends through confirmation and agreement
by the two players about the life and death of stones and
territory. This is called "the end of the game."
3. If a player requests resumption of a stopped game, his opponent
must oblige and has the right to play first.
Article 10. Determining the result
1. After agreement that the game has ended, each player removes any
opposing dead stones from his territory as is, and adds them to his
prisoners.
2. Prisoners are then filled into the opponent's territory, and the
points of territory are counted and compared. The player with more
territory wins. If both players have the same amount the game is a
draw, which is called a "jigo."
3. If one player lodges an objection to the result, both players
must reconfirm the result by, for example, replaying the game.
4. After both players have confirmed the result, the result cannot
be changed under any circumstances.
The commentary on Article 9 can be read to imply that the
confirmation stones are unwound, but the wording "moves played not in
accordance with the rules during the period when the game was
stopped" is far from clear.
Commentary on Article 9 (end of the game) Clause 3
1. "If a player requests resumption..."
The game is released from its stopped state and competition resumes.
2. "...his opponent...has the right to play first."
a. If a game is resumed, any moves played not in accordance with
the rules during the period when the game was stopped are invalid
{and are presumably removed from the board. --wjh}
b. Arguments over who plays first are resolved by stating that the
opponent of the player who requests resumption may play first.
3. "...his opponent must oblige..."
If the opponent does not see any need to play, he may pass.
I really can't see in here what we do if I say my stones are alive
and you say they're dead, I request resuming the game, you pass
(because you don't want to fill in your own territory), and then I
pass. The game has ended again, and we still have a dispute.
Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/
On Sep 18, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 21:39 -0700, Ross Werner wrote:
And, of course, once a beginner understands life and death in this
manner, playing out disputed groups is the most natural way to
determine
the life-or-death status of a group. (And, I submit, the best way no
matter what ruleset you're using.)
The ruleset has to specify a way to resolve disputes. You can't just
play it out using "any" ruleset. So are you teaching informal
territory
rules with an ad hoc "virtual" play out, or are you using AGA rules
with
pass stones?
-Jeff
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