That was a quite elegant way to present the idea. Ty for sharing. On Jan 5, 2017 8:36 PM, "David Ongaro" <david.ong...@hamburg.de> wrote:
> This discussion reminds me of an incident which happened at the EGC in > Tuchola 2004 (maybe someone can find a source for this). I don’t remember > all details but it was about like this: > > Two amateur players where analyzing a Game and a professional player > happened to come by. So they asked him how he would assess the position. > After a quick look he said “White is leading by two points”. The two > players where wondering: “You can count that quickly?”, but the pro > answered “No, I just asked myself if I would like to have black in this > position. The answer is no. But with two extra Komi for Black it would feel > ok.” > > So it seems professionals already acquired some kind of “value network” > due to their hard training, but they also can modify its assessments by > taking Komi into account. Maybe that's something we also should do, i.e. > not only train the value network by taking go positions and results into > account but also add the Komi as an input (the output would still be a > simple win/lose result). In that way we don’t have to train a different > network for each Komi, even though the problem getting enough training data > for all Komi values still remains. > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 11:44 AM, David Ongaro <david.ong...@hamburg.de> wrote: > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 2:37 AM, Detlef Schmicker <d...@physik.de> wrote: > > Hi, > > what makes you think the opening theory with reverse komi would be the > same as with standard komi? > > I would be afraid to invest an enormous amount of time just to learn, > that you have to open differently in reverse komi games :) > > > Thats why I used the comparative adjective “less”. It might not be ideal, > but still much better than changing the fundamental structure of the > opening with an extra stone. Furthermore the effect might not as big as you > think: > > 1. The stronger player doesn’t have to play overplays when the handicap is > correct. If the handicap is correct and if AlphaGo “knows” that is another > question though… Of course the weaker player might play differently (i.e. > more safely) but at least that is something he or she can control > 2. One could even argue the other way around: we might see more sound > (theoretically correct) moves from AlphaGo with reverse Komi. If it's > seeing itself ahead already during the opening it might resort to slack but > safe moves. Since it’s still winning we can be left wondering if it was > actually a good move. But if it does an unusual looking move which it can’t > be considered an overplay but it’s still winning in the end with reverse > Komi there should be a real insight to gain. > > Still, a reverse Komi handicap is rather big, but it might be the next > best thing we have without retraining the value network from scratch. > Furthermore retraining the value network will probably affect the playing > style even more. > > Thanks, > > David O. > > > Am 05.01.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Paweł Morawiecki: > > 2017-01-04 21:07 GMT+01:00 David Ongaro <david.ong...@hamburg.de>: > > > [...]So my question is: is it possible to have reverse Komi games > by feeding the value network with reverse colors? > > > In the paper from Nature (subsection "Features for policy/value > network"), authors state: > > *the stone colour at each intersection was represented as either > player or opponent rather than black or white. * > > Then, I think the AlphaGo algorithm would be fine with a reverse > komi. Namely, a human player takes black and has 7.5 komi. The next > step is that AlphaGo gives 2 stones of handicap but keeps 7.5 komi > (normally you have 0.5). > > Aja, can you confirm this? > > > Also having 2 stone games is not so interesting since it would > reveal less insights for even game opening Theory. > > > I agree with David here, most insights we would get from even > games. But we can imagine the following show. Some games are played > with a reverse komi, some games would be played with 2 stones (yet, > white keeps 7.5 komi) and eventually the main event with normal > even games to debunk our myths on the game. Wouldn't be super > exciting!? > > Best regards, Paweł > > > > _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing > list Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >
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