There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
From: Garth Wallace
1b. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1d. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
From: Logan Kearsley
1e. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Re: Conlang Profanity
From: Mechthild Czapp
3a. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
From: Scar Cvxni
3b. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
From: Douglas Koller
3c. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
From: H. S. Teoh
4. Autosegmental?
From: neo gu
5a. Conlanging Software Wish List
From: Patrick VanDusen
5b. Re: Conlanging Software Wish List
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
5c. Re: Conlanging Software Wish List
From: Padraic Brown
6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if"
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:47 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just had a thought. If Yemora is uncensored, would there really be such a
> thing as profane language? Oh, dragon dung would only be profane in a
> censored society, wouldn't it?
I think there's no such thing as a censored language. Censorship is
something that happens to utterances or written texts.
>
>
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:26 pm ((PDT))
So it would be mora bout the appropriateness of words and phrases.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Garth Wallace
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:47 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just had a thought. If Yemora is uncensored, would there really be such
a
> thing as profane language? Oh, dragon dung would only be profane in a
> censored society, wouldn't it?
I think there's no such thing as a censored language. Censorship is
something that happens to utterances or written texts.
>
>
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:28 pm ((PDT))
But then since Yemorans learn that our society is censorship, how would that
be explained? Would they know it as an appropriateness upgrade, especially
since the law is involved?
With all kinds of music except vocals, being illegal, does that make it
censored?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Garth Wallace
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:47 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just had a thought. If Yemora is uncensored, would there really be such
a
> thing as profane language? Oh, dragon dung would only be profane in a
> censored society, wouldn't it?
I think there's no such thing as a censored language. Censorship is
something that happens to utterances or written texts.
>
>
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:15 pm ((PDT))
On 29 July 2013 15:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But then since Yemorans learn that our society is censorship, how would that
> be explained? Would they know it as an appropriateness upgrade, especially
> since the law is involved?
Why does it have to be explained? It could just be a totally empty
statement of political ideology. "They censor things; censorship is
bad; we are good; therefore, our world is uncensored (pay no attention
to the prohibitions behind the curtain."
It doesn't actually mean anything, it's just nice propaganda....
> With all kinds of music except vocals, being illegal, does that make it
> censored?
That does sound like censorship to me.
-l.
Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:26 pm ((PDT))
Hmm.Then, that's the only thing censored.
I love that wizard of oz spin in your response.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf
Of Logan Kearsley
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 6:16 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Censorship was Re:Conlang Profanity
On 29 July 2013 15:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But then since Yemorans learn that our society is censorship, how would that
> be explained? Would they know it as an appropriateness upgrade, especially
> since the law is involved?
Why does it have to be explained? It could just be a totally empty
statement of political ideology. "They censor things; censorship is
bad; we are good; therefore, our world is uncensored (pay no attention
to the prohibitions behind the curtain."
It doesn't actually mean anything, it's just nice propaganda....
> With all kinds of music except vocals, being illegal, does that make it
> censored?
That does sound like censorship to me.
-l.
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Conlang Profanity
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" rejista...@me.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:48 pm ((PDT))
Rejistanis love to curse with terms like Itva and Slani (both mean failure, but
slani is considered worse), selme (debts or indebted, because Rejistania had a
history of debt slavery). Rejistanian culture is rather communal so approval
within a community is important. Rejistanian curses often imply that this is no
longer the case. There is also the deprecative prefix mer whose history is
still unclear.
Am 28.07.2013 um 21:56 schrieb Don Boozer <librarian....@gmail.com>:
> I'm writing a review of Holy Sh*t: A Brief History of Swearing by Melissa
> Mohr (published by Oxford Univ Press, 2013) for Fiat Lingua (
> http://fiatlingua.org). However, as part of that review I'm planning on
> looking at it's implications and uses for constructing languages, worlds,
> and cultures. And, as part of that, swearing in existing conlangs (both
> well known (e.g., Esperanto, Dothraki) and personal ones).
>
> With that, if anyone would like to share any profanity, vulgarisms, "vain
> oaths", etc., that they have included in their conlangs or con-cultures, I
> would be happy to hear about them. If anyone is familiar with Esperanto
> swearing, that would be interesting as well. I've dug around on the web and
> on the Conlang-L archives, but it doesn't appear there is an overabundance
> of people willing to talk about this area of conlanging (or at least hasn't
> been for a few years).
>
> The article is due on Fiat Lingua for Sept. 1.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Boozer
Messages in this topic (21)
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3a. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
Posted by: "Scar Cvxni" jeviscac...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:06 pm ((PDT))
@Elsa it'd be cool if there were some kind of app that let you draw letters
and then incorporate them into a keyboard. Business idea, perhaps? ;)
On 29 July 2013 20:44, Elsa Nilaj <elsanila...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is good! Keep it up, you're doing great :) I would share some meanings
> of my own language but there are no letters on the keyboard that can let me
> write them....
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Scott Villanueva-Hlad
> <scotth...@telus.net>wrote:
>
> > Het gamgoram ohat euliekicom sośutucia or vamysdi.
> >
> > [the cougar must].accusative [must feed].verb [(the one who)
> > lives].participle [in].preposition [(the) forest].noun
> >
> > Translation: He who lives in the forest must feed the cougar.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ńette syśetory laloutcia ailet.
> >
> > Little.adverb announce.verb.perfective say.participle.imperfective
> > much.adverb
> >
> > Translation: He who talks much says little.
> >
> >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:39 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 17:12:24 -0600
> From: scotth...@telus.net
> Subject: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> �ette sy�etory laloutcia ailet.
> Little.adverb announce.verb.perfective say.participle.imperfective
> much.adverb
> Translation: He who talks much says little.
This pretty much explains itself.
> Het gamgoram ohat euliekicom so�utucia or vamysdi.
> [the cougar must].accusative [must feed].verb [(the one who)
> lives].participle [in].preposition [(the) forest].noun
> Translation: He who lives in the forest must feed the cougar.
This is a nice turn of phrase, but what nugget of wisdom is it encapsulating
for your confolk? Paying the piper? What goes around comes around? Glass
houses? Preparing for a rainy day? Making hay while the sun shines? Be
deferential/sensitive/aware of where you're at? One bad apple? Thick as
thieves? To meet your prince, you gotta kiss a few toads? Possible misfortune
lurks behind every corner? Love me, love my dog? Be careful what you wish for?
Pay Caesar what is due Caesar?
I feel like I should be nodding very knowingly in assent to an eternal truth,
but which truth is it?
Kou
Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: 2 Asirkan proverbs:
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:34 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 05:12:24PM -0600, Scott Villanueva-Hlad wrote:
> Het gamgoram ohat euliekicom sośutucia or vamysdi.
>
> [the cougar must].accusative [must feed].verb [(the one who)
> lives].participle [in].preposition [(the) forest].noun
>
> Translation: He who lives in the forest must feed the cougar.
I like this aphorism. Here's a Tatari Faran translation:
uehaa na kira eka birap so
snow_leopard RCP.MASC give must food CVY.NEUT
san i-marai ipai tanap-i ka tsa.
person AUX.CVY-forest at dwell-AUX.CVY ORG.MASC FIN
"The snow leopard must be given food by the person who dwells in
the forest."
TF does have a verb for feed: _pinai muun_, but it is usually used of
feeding children, and implies a motherly kind of care in administering
the food, which sounds rather odd to be used for a wild animal. :) I
think my paraphrasis here using "to give food to" better captures the
spirit of the original. :)
Also, I've slipped a little twist into the finalizer: the usual
finalizer for _kira_ "give" is _esan_, but here I deliberately
substituted _tsa_ "[munch]" as a hint that this is not a friendly
transaction we're talking about (if I correctly understand the intent of
the original). :)
> Ńette syśetory laloutcia ailet.
>
> Little.adverb announce.verb.perfective say.participle.imperfective
> much.adverb
>
> Translation: He who talks much says little.
[...]
Surprisingly enough, I've a hard time translating this one into Tatari
Faran! Even though there's a verb for speak (tsana aniin) and even for
talkative chat (sisita isin), they don't quite convey what is intended
here, because they refer to the physical action, whereas the meaning
here is more abstract.
In the end, I decided to paraphrase instead:
tatari karampau so jataa mene'ia' hairan.
word too_much CVY.NEUT inform too_little FIN
Too many words inform too little.
T
--
Windows 95 was a joke, and Windows 98 was the punchline.
Messages in this topic (5)
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4. Autosegmental?
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:59 pm ((PDT))
While we're waiting, here's another sketch (Jul27) that carries over some of
the features of Jul17 while changing others. There are 4 "tenses" (whose usage
is the same as before) and fused mood and syntactical function markers (mode).
However, words are not paired and word order is mostly VOS, head-modifier.
Verb roots are CVCV but with the placement of the vowels (patterns) being
variable relative to the consonants, so that CVCV, VCCV, and VCVC can appear.
Most verbs have a 3rd derivational consonant. The future, present, perfect, and
aorist tenses are marked by the patterns. There are 2 additional patterns:
imperative and action nominal. The same patterns are used for both finite and
non-finite forms. They are:
Tag Pattern Examples Name
------------------------------------------------
Imp -VCV:C<#>C suga:rok ***** Imperative
Fut -VCVCC- dugarko: ugarke Future
Prs -CVCCV- degorkahu gorka Present
Prf -VCCV:C- dogra:ko: gura:ke Perfect
Aor -VCCVC- dograkhu gurakhe Aorist
AN CV:CVC ***** gu:rak Action Nominal
The 1st column of examples are 3rd person singular except for the imperative.
The 2nd column of examples are non- finite forms. The initial C(e)- are the
mode prefixes; the endings can be either person and number of subject,
agreement with the head noun, or other non-finite markers; each of these is
fused with an active-passive indication. <#> is a vowel denoting number.
I believe that this is the kind of morphology that benefits from an
autosegmental analysis, of which I know very little. Actually, I have doubts
about this particular scheme, especially concerning its historical aspects.
Any comments?
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Conlanging Software Wish List
Posted by: "Patrick VanDusen" pdu...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:19 pm ((PDT))
Hi all,
I'm a software developer who would like to (in my spare time, of course)
create a large-scale web application to support conlanging. Some ideas I've
had for features, off the top of my head, include
* Public/Private languages
* Sound Inventory (for each language)
* Language Families
* A uniform sound change applier (for language families)
* Lexicon
However, while I find conlanging fascinating, I'm at best a rank amateur.
So let me ask you, the professionals; what sort of functionality would you
look for in conlanging software? What features would appeal to you?
Patrick
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Conlanging Software Wish List
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:31 pm ((PDT))
Hi, I'm not a professional, but am blind, and would like to be allowed to
test the software for screen reader accessibility.
What would make the software accessible out-the-box would be minimal
graphics.
Combbo boxes, maybe a file uploader, checkboxes, radio buttons, edit fields,
maybe a way to generate what the language would sound like in audio format.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Patrick VanDusen
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 6:09 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Conlanging Software Wish List
Hi all,
I'm a software developer who would like to (in my spare time, of course)
create a large-scale web application to support conlanging. Some ideas I've
had for features, off the top of my head, include
* Public/Private languages
* Sound Inventory (for each language)
* Language Families
* A uniform sound change applier (for language families)
* Lexicon
However, while I find conlanging fascinating, I'm at best a rank amateur.
So let me ask you, the professionals; what sort of functionality would you
look for in conlanging software? What features would appeal to you?
Patrick
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Conlanging Software Wish List
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:10 pm ((PDT))
> From: Patrick VanDusen <pdu...@gmail.com>
>
> I'm a software developer who would like to (in my spare time, of course)
> create a large-scale web application to support conlanging. Some ideas I've
> had for features, off the top of my head, include
>
> * Public/Private languages
> * Sound Inventory (for each language)
> * Language Families
> * A uniform sound change applier (for language families)
> * Lexicon
>
> However, while I find conlanging fascinating, I'm at best a rank amateur.
> So let me ask you, the professionals; what sort of functionality would you
> look for in conlanging software? What features would appeal to you?
Off the top of my head, the usual things conlangers looks for are superior
dictionary
creation and easy font creation.
Note that these aren't sìmple tasks! Many of our languages are highly
agglutinative --
a single word may be comprised of twenty or thirty discrete chunks of meaning. A
standard dictionary format won't work out so well. A lot of us have writing
systems
that are not alphabetic, or are partially alphabetic or may incorporate a style
that
doesn't lend itself to the individual letters most fonts and word processing
softwares
are used to working with.
You also mention some other ideas people have talked about: sound change
appliers
and other diachronic manipulators.
> Patrick
Padraic
Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if"
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:01 pm ((PDT))
> From: Lisa Weißbach <purereasonrevoluz...@web.de>
>
>> On fornez this man yoet yahend on thon watersithon with his beuhen ande
>> his arhweuô,
>
> What a cool story!
This is one I didn't write -- just translated! But its style fits well with the
philosophical gumbo that sloshes around the City. Actually, I would be
interested , as an aside , in knowing what your impression of the language
is, being a German speaker. Obviously, it's not intended to mimic German
per se, but it's quite a bit different from ModEng!
> And the idea of twisting existing proverbs and aphorisms
> sounds clever, too.
Ah, hast uncovered and laid bare the very root of all Philosophy!
> During my long lurking period I've already gathered
> that your World seems quite elaborate; I wish I had gotten this far
> already...
Well, in all honesty, I've been working at it since the mid 1980s or so.
Gosh. I didn't realise twas quite thát long a time! It's certainly gotten
much more attention and more depth the last ten years or so.
> I started to work on a creation myth months ago and have only a
> few sentences to show for it.
Those could be some of the best sentences ever written! Myth is so
much fun to work with. It's basic to every culture. Well, every culture
that has some spark of the divine about it. They help the writer not
only fill in some gaps of knowledge about the constructed language but
also about the culture that speaks it. It is at once liberating to create
the writing, but also binds creator and creation more closely together.
Very intimate things, myths. They are the secret language of the
conlanger speaking to her own creation within their own world.
> These kinds of tales are perfect for filling
> up a world with culture and provide insight into the way of thinking, and
> they conjure up an image of the Avantimen being very good at narrating with
> the sort of deadpan delivery of an abrupt ending that this story requires.
> I like them already ;)
Thanks! I've become rather fond of that particular place in the World as
well. There and Westmarche.
> I assume that "scôte" means 'shot'
Yes. Sceuten is a second ablaut conjugation verb. My favorite in the class is
dreuwnen,
to lead (one) down the garden path, to deceive.
> and that, judging from other sentences, the language isn't usually verb-last?
Indeed not, though as with any highly inflected language, word order can be
freed up a little. The usual order seems to be SVO, although verb first is also
met with: "Lehhete then se hundô lîthund, them yahundum hwôpand he seyete...";
laughed then the hounds' leader, (to) them hunters whooping he said... and
verb final is also met with: "Ande they thon fohhe fefênen and his throwte
scêren
ande they Rahhnhardo qurfe, his blôd fram his throwte douwn rane." -- And they
that
fox grabbed and his throat (they) ripped and they Reynard slew, his blood from
his throat down ran.
Nominative and accusative are generally very clearly delineated, so se fohs vs.
se
fohhe are obviously different to an Avantiman listening to the story while the
fox
vs. the fox would not be so different to an Englishman. Of course, that doesn't
work with all nouns: some, like water, share a nom./acc. in common.
> If so, there
> you have a sign of irony and comedic timing: leaving the verb - the crucial
> word that undermines your expectations - until the very end of the sentence.
Yes, I think that is a good point. Undoubtedly, verb final kind of makes a good
place to leave the hearer with a strong sense of drama -- we don't really know
what happened until the very last word! Like the sentence above: the writer
còuld have said "ande they fefenen thon fohhe and sceren his throwte..." and it
would have been perfectly good Avantimannish. But it would nòt have been
good sawyery!
In a similar way, the story teller can smack his audience, as it were, by
confronting them immediately with the action by placing the verb first.
> I imagine that in telling the story, one might make a short
> dramatic pause before the verb to prepare the listener for the surprise,
> although I think that the irony has a more subtle impact without such a
> pause; I'd prefer it that way.
Ya. I read it with only the slightest pause at the comma after wiscraftinesse.
> Lisa
Padraic
Messages in this topic (23)
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