Hi All, Thanks for the feedback thus far - this is going to help inform my ongoing discussions within Microsoft and I feel like we are getting to the heart of pros/cons/concerns around MSSQL + Django.
I appreciate there are diverse stances on this subject, and feel like this conversation is a helpful one. To be clear, my mission here is to ascertain if there might be a mutually beneficial solution. Cheers, Warren On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 08:40:20 UTC-7 matthew.pava wrote: > I agree with Tim’s sentiment here. Had a solid SQL Server backend been > available 7 or 8 years ago, I would probably have used that due to the > requirements from my supervisor. I had to convince him that PostgreSQL > would be just as good. > > > > Based on what I read on the Git page, though, the backend doesn’t pass > some tests that it seems like it ought to. Once it is better, as Tim > already stated, I would absolutely support and wish and hope that SQL > Server would become a part of core. It is one of the most popular database > backends in use. > > > > One argument was made that we don’t need to add any other database > backends to core because they are doing fine as third-party dependencies. > To that I would ask, why have any database backend in core then? Why not > have them all be third-party dependencies? > > > > Just my two cents, > > Matthew > > > > *From:* django-d...@googlegroups.com <django-d...@googlegroups.com> *On > Behalf Of *Tim Allen > *Sent:* Friday, April 1, 2022 10:02 AM > *To:* Django developers (Contributions to Django itself) < > django-d...@googlegroups.com> > *Subject:* Re: Revisiting MSSQL and Azure SQL Support in Django > > > > Full disclosure: I've helped maintain SQL Server Django engine packages in > the past, and was involved in getting the project started for the official > Microsoft Django engine package. > > > > First, thanks to Warren and the folks from Microsoft for creating this > backend. There are a fair amount of users that need a Microsoft SQL Server > backend, and for years we've been having to shuttle between > barely-maintained engines, forks, and pip installs to commit hashes while > waiting for merges. It is less than ideal. Several big supporters of Django > (The Wharton School, RedHat Ansible, to name two) have been among those > looking for a solid backend solution for years. Microsoft has provided us a > vastly improved option to what we'd been saddled with for the past decade. > > > > The DB popularity index at db-engines.com has regularly listed the top > four as Oracle, MySQL, Microsoft SQL Server, and PostgreSQL, in that order. > I notice some comments in this thread about Microsoft being for-profit... > well, what about Oracle? I don't see Oracle on the Support Django page > either, yet two of their databases have support in core. MSSQL is the only > one of the big-four RDBMS's without support in core Django. That seems to > be a pretty big hole in Django's offering. > > > > That said, I completely agree that the backend still needs work, and a > solid commitment from Microsoft before being brought into core Django. I > want to make sure Microsoft knows that many in our community appreciate > their efforts in taking the lead on this backend: support for SQL Server in > the Django ecosystem is far better than it ever has been in my eight years > of being a Djangonaut. They have put a lot of time and effort into this > project, and I think they're well on their way to where they need to be for > the long-term goal of being in core Django. > > > > A lot of the questions being asked of Microsoft in this thread just don't > seem fair to me - we're not asking the same of Oracle, Redis Enterprise > Software, or any of the other commercial products that Django has built-in > support for. Why Microsoft and not the others? > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Tim > > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:39:17 AM UTC-4 Salman Mohammadi wrote: > > Hi, > > IMO, Django is there to create value for *its* users. > > I'm not aware how MS Team reached this conclusion that merging their > incomplete package into Django core creates more value for Django users > than when it is a third-party package. Would you please tell me how? > > I have access to only two resources to calculate the popularity of > mssql-django package, one of them is the last Django Survey, > > > https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2022/jan/03/django-developers-survey-2021-results/ > > <https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=djangoproject.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGphbmdvcHJvamVjdC5jb20vd2VibG9nLzIwMjIvamFuLzAzL2RqYW5nby1kZXZlbG9wZXJzLXN1cnZleS0yMDIxLXJlc3VsdHMv&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=SGN4MTJxQTFCUFNoR29lZUduQk43bGl0TTFDK0NtZTlVUGkvV3RiWUcrZz0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7> > > and the other one is Github Stars. None of them show any sign that MS > package is even semi-popular among Django users. > > We have many popular packages that are residing outside of Django core and > living happily their lives. > > Probably MS wants to use this merge as a marketing point for their MSSQL, > a proprietary software. > > At the end I, as a total outsider with no direct connection of any kind > with Django project, have nothing against merging MS package into core the > same way that we have Oracle backend. But before that, there are some > questions that need to addressed: > > 1. How can MS package create more value for Django users by getting merged > into main branch? > > 2. According to your internal spying tools, how popular is your package? > > 3. How can you guarantee the long-term sustainability of your package? > > 4. What are the previous involvements of MS Package contributors in Django? > > 5. How does MS support Django Project for its long-term fundraising goals? > > 6. Is MS Team ready to follow Django Project deadlines? Especially release > dates and critical bugs. > > 7. How does MS support Django Fellows in helping them triaging the > tickets, related to MS package. > > Cheers, Salman > > > > > > Am 31. März 2022 18:30:06 MESZ schrieb Warren Chu <vwa...@gmail.com>: > > Hi All, > > There is increasing interest within Microsoft to have stronger ties > between Microsoft SQL Server and Django. As you may be aware, Microsoft and > their connectivity teams have been managing the 3rd party backend for > "mssql-django" for over a year now at: > https://github.com/microsoft/mssql-django > <https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=github.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL21pY3Jvc29mdC9tc3NxbC1kamFuZ28=&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=bTAzbkRpZU8zRVAxZU1sc2plWWY4UnFFQlZqbFRweTR0cjcwRFg1UEh3Zz0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7> > > Inclusion of SQL Server as a 1st party backend is viewed as a potential > big milestone in that regard. > > @adamjohnson mentioned a year ago that ideally the community would like to > see multiple years of ongoing Microsoft support before considering merging > as a 1st party backend. > > We'd love to hear thoughts and feedback around the possibility of moving > forward with a DEP enhancement proposal, with a commitment from Microsoft > to providing continued dedicated support for the 1st party backend through > the Django project itself (rather than the 3rd party repo). > > Cheers, > Team Microsoft > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/6baed3f9-6cf5-459a-9937-f0c38d64f332n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://us-east-2.protection.sophos.com?d=google.com&u=aHR0cHM6Ly9ncm91cHMuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9kL21zZ2lkL2RqYW5nby1kZXZlbG9wZXJzLzZiYWVkM2Y5LTZjZjUtNDU5YS05OTM3LWYwYzM4ZDY0ZjMzMm4lNDBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tP3V0bV9tZWRpdW09ZW1haWwmdXRtX3NvdXJjZT1mb290ZXI=&i=NWVjN2YxNzUxNGEyNzMxNmMyMGRkZGU1&t=N0hoT3N6Q0FzNUVnNnRNcGhLWmFVMmRzTit5UzRWVnBIbHFiOStQSnRNND0=&h=35eb6939d2dd4d978b08a6a8ae2ffcf7> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. 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