EV Digest 5457
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric car at local festival
by "Bob Newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electric car at local festival
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dismal Rane and charging question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric car at local festival
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 12v battery advise
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ft. Pierce EV Rally road race (long!)
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: tax laws
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric car at local festival
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Solectria Force on eBay
by Carlton Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) A new charger idea
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Ft. Pierce EV Rally part 2
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Suitable Range Extending Alternator for Trailer Power Supply
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric car at local festival
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 12v Battery Advise Needed
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric car at local festival
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 12v Battery Advise Needed
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Low Rolling Resistance Tires Idea, Request for Feedback
by Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Low Rolling Resistance Tires Idea, Request for Feedback
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solectria Force on eBay
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: tax laws
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: tax laws
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: OT: "70 amp battery isolator"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Solectria Force on eBay
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Wrightspeed article on CNN
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Please don't feel obligated if you are not comfortable showing it. But, it
is unique in both being electric and an old, original VW "bug". Anyone else
in the Modesto or Turlock area with an ev that they would like to show it,
please feel free to do so. Mike Parker suggested Roger Young's 'Lectric
Leopard. Don't know if he is on this list. I will have a vendor booth there
with e bikes & a motorscooter but will be busy with other aspects of the
festival. It will be a good chance to get some exposure. More info can be
found at
http://www.hughsoncarshow.com/ Bob Newman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 1:58 PM
Subject: Electric car at local festival
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in the area.
The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts. It's a work in
progress, with the back end full of batteries, not clamped down or covered.
The paint is rough but not out of line for a 50 year old car. Any
suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
May 21st and 22nd in Hughson CA. just outside Modesto
Marc Geller wrote:
Where and when is this fruit and nut fest?
Marc
On May 7, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Bill & Nancy wrote:
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in the
area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts. It's
a work in progress, with the back end full of batteries, not clamped
down or covered. The paint is rough but not out of line for a 50 year
old car. Any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
You can get 50 ampere-hours out of your Exides Orbitals if you drive only
drawing 2.5 amps for 20 hours. (2.5 amperes x 20 hours = 50 amp-hrs)
Actual battery capacity decreases as discharge current increases. A battery
rated at 50 ampere-hours which can deliver 2.5 amperes for 20 hours, may
deliver 10 amperes for 4 hours, resulting in an actual capacity of 40
ampere-hours.
A deep cycle electric vehicle battery will show Reserve Capacity in Minutes
at 25 amps and at 75 amps. The 75 amps is closer to the actual average
ampere of a EV.
Lets say the Exide Orbital batteries have a Reserved Capacity of 120 minutes
at 25 amp. If you drive your vehicle at 25 amperes, then:
120 min / 60 = 2 hrs
2 hr x 25 amps = 50 amp-hrs
Note: that the Reserved Capacity of 120 minutes may be too high, but lets
keep here for are sample.
If you drive your vehicle at 75 amperes, then the Reserved Capacity is less
than 1/4 then it was at 25 amps.
120 min / 4 = 30 minutes or less.
Therefore.....
30 min / 60 = 0.5 hrs
0.5 hr x 75 = 37.5 ah
You would have to depleted your battery 100% to use 37.5 ah at a 75 ampere
load.
Usable range for a long life is to 50% or usable ampere-hour of 37.5/2 =
18.75 amp.hrs.
Maximum discharge would be 20% State of charge or usable ampere-hour of 37.5
x .80 = 30 amp.hrs.
If you are using 11 ah to go 7.3 miles or about 1.5 ah per mile, then your
range at:
75 amp load to 50% State of charge is 18.75/1.5 = 12.5 miles
75 amp load to 20% State of charge is 30.00/1.5 = 20.0 miles
If you can drive your EV at 25 amperes, I can drive my 6850 lbs EV in the
13.5:1 2nd overall gear ratio at 40 battery amps at 25 mph.
25 amp load to 50% State of charge is 25.00/1.5 = 16.6 miles
25 amp load to 20% State of charge is 40.00/1.5 = 26.6 miles
The number of charging cycles will be reduce to about 2 years at 20% where
at 50% you may be able to squeeze 4 years if you charge every day.
To increase the life of the batteries, I used as high ampere-hour batteries
I can get in. I run about 5 miles a day and takes me about a week to get
down to 80% State of Charge. Takes me only 20 minutes or less to charge it
to 95%.
At this rate of 15% discharge, the 260 ah batteries will have over 4000
cycles or 80 years. Normally can only get 10 years with my battery packs.
Even though that my batteries are rated at 260 ah at the 20 hour rate, they
have only 145 minutes reserved capacity at 75 amps.
145 min. / 60 = 2.41 hrs
2.41 hrs x 75 amps = 181 amp-hrs.
Usable ampere-hours at 50% is 181 / 2 = 90.5 ahs.
Therefore a person needs more lead for more range and maybe more charge
cycles.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Dismal Rane and charging question
> I only have maybe 20 miles range, mostly caused by poor milage 460wh/mile.
>
> But someone was asking about chargeing, mentioned 5 amps on a 50ah
> battery is 10 hours. Obviously we only use 80% but do we say 37(34*.8)
> Ah dischargeing in one hour then (.8 * 45Ah) 36Ah chargeing ie a 45AH at
> 4 hour rate?
>
> I have been using 110V on my PFC 20 and I can never get more than 4.5
> amps without poppng a breaker and yet it has never taken 10 hours to
> charge, even when I mis-judged and had to stop in some random side
> street (luckily I stopped and was getting out of my car at the exact
> instance the owner came home. He asked what was wrong and imeedeatly
> offered to let me plug in, even had plugs mounted on the outside of the
> garage. There are still nice people in this world, amen)
>
> Excide orbitals are rated at 50ah at 20 hour rate, I have been using
> 34ah from the 1 hour rateing as my calculation point.
> 34*.8/5 = 5.4 hours 34*.8/4 =6.8 hours.
>
> I travel to work using 3.4kwh in 7.3 miles (has been 3.1 to 3.6kwh) if
> that is only 11ah @ 300V that makes sense that I recharge in 2.5 hours
> at work, but does this mean that I am getting under 25ah from the
> batteries because I am using it faster than 1 hr?
> This would mean that when I fix the 460wh/mile problem, I will see more
> than just an increase in what 25ah will do, i will see an increase in
> avail ah also?
>
> ah,, I love pukert.
>
> I just want to make sure I am getting the range I should out of these
> batteries.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oops, May 20 and May 21st.
Bill
Bill & Nancy wrote:
May 21st and 22nd in Hughson CA. just outside Modesto
Marc Geller wrote:
Where and when is this fruit and nut fest?
Marc
On May 7, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Bill & Nancy wrote:
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in
the area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts.
It's a work in progress, with the back end full of batteries, not
clamped down or covered. The paint is rough but not out of line for
a 50 year old car. Any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
I did but I was afraid of the additional weight...The 12v's are
looking like 45 lbs each, which is about the same for the 8v. That's
a difference of 225 lbs which might be the difference between two and
three passengers (I forgot to mention that I need to have capacity
for a third passenger, the three of us in the family)...
Will GC 8v batteries provide a better per-volt range? Maybe 120
volts is unnecessary? Maybe 12 8v batteries will suffice (96 volts)?
Of course, if 12v's are unacceptable, I can always scale back my
hopes and dreams ;-) OK, its not THAT drastic...Maybe scale back
the project a tad...30 miles is really just about the bottom
limit. Maybe this is an unrealistic range within my limited budget.
I DO want an EV, but if it proves to be impractical for my needs then
I'll have to look at some other option (drats).
Wayne
At 03:48 PM 5/7/2006, you wrote:
Have you considered using 15 8 volt g/c batteries?
Bill
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just realized that I mixed up my "eastbound" and "westbound" bearings a few
times in my previous post. Sheesh, with a sense of direction that
backwards, it's a wonder I didn't get lost! Guess it's that wind convention
that still confuses me sometimes -- 090 at 15-20 kts is out of the east but
of course is blowing in a westerly direction. Many years later that still
trips me up sometimes.
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John and others,
Having April 15th still fresh in my mind, I'm not sure how you got the
$3400! Just like last year, a hi-bride like the Prius will get you $2000
off your WAGES (line 36 on 1040 form, EV's use form 8834), which for my
wife was ONLY $300 back on last years Federal tax return. Now the state of
Colorado has up to a $3285 "credit" on an '06 Prius and it carries forward
for five years if you've paid less than that in taxes (you can only get
back what you've paid in).
50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
>Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:53:42 -0400
>From: John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>On Sat, 6 May 2006 16:31, Sharon G Alexander wrote:
>> Hi Guys. we have been trying to change the Fed tax laws, so far were
>> makeing progress. I am in Contact with the head of the Senate finance
>> cometty to change Tax laws, the head of the commity and me and my
>> husband have been on the phone and e-mails for 2 weeks so far, and as
>> of now it looks good, Were trying to change the "law" that would give
>> all the conversions cost BACK,,meaning build if for X amount of dollars
>> ands you get that much back in the form of a income tax return check.So
>> if you look at the Fed income tax pages you'll see they wont give any
>> thing back for a conversion,,,but for a NEW built ,they will. This what
>> were trying to change.
>> What we need is for any of you to Contact us by E-mail and help.
>> They need any people that are building them as NEW..or converting them.
>> With this Info I can sent that to washington. so the laws can be
>> changed. Me and my husband are still building them in Ks. they have a
>> 40% tax credit. More needs to be done. if you want to help us, Please
>> do, Thnaks Sharon
>
>Need to have a concrete proposal for what the law ought to be, and also
>make it realistic.
>
>Current Federal law does not give 100% credit for a brand new EV.
>Neither does a tax credit mean that whatever you spent you get a check
>for from the government.
>
>Obviously the Feds have an interest in promoting such things, buy a
>Prius and you get a 3400 credit (that means you can subtract 3400 from
>your income, which for most people means you save about 1100 in taxes).
>
>I think that a tax credit for conversions is something that should be a
>part of law, but I think you could best hope for something like applying
>the new credit to conversions, too.
>
>That should be the concrete proposal, and with that sort of specificdty,
>people could write in, and the various EVAA's could help organize.
>
>
>
>John F. Norton
>via T-Mobile Sidekick
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just curious...How many of us are there in the Modesto area?
David C Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"The Bush administration's priorities are
"a little bit different now and veterans aren't a priority,"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Electric car at local festival
Bill,
Please don't feel obligated if you are not comfortable showing it. But, it
is unique in both being electric and an old, original VW "bug". Anyone
else in the Modesto or Turlock area with an ev that they would like to
show it, please feel free to do so. Mike Parker suggested Roger Young's
'Lectric Leopard. Don't know if he is on this list. I will have a vendor
booth there with e bikes & a motorscooter but will be busy with other
aspects of the festival. It will be a good chance to get some exposure.
More info can be found at
http://www.hughsoncarshow.com/ Bob Newman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 1:58 PM
Subject: Electric car at local festival
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival in the
area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72 volts. It's a
work in progress, with the back end full of batteries, not clamped down or
covered. The paint is rough but not out of line for a 50 year old car. Any
suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just put my 1999 Solectria Force up for sale on eBay. It has been
a good car for me, but now that I have another electric car and a
hybrid, it is time to cut back. If interested, check:
http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?
uid=47749019&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4638308645&lk=URL
Regards,
Carl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been planning a new way of chargeing I'd like to try later this
year, I think I have brought it up on list once before but I am trying
to think of ways to improve it.I don't have time and money to play but
that shouldn't stop someone who does have the resources. Since we are
discussing balancing again....
Warning, this idea is micro computer based. :-) the simplist version as
follows.
First imagine a control board for the PFC 20 that has 5 - 10k pots
connected each thru a transistor(or relay) to the input of an opamp
creating a voltage sumator. this feeds the opamp normally fed by a 10K
pot. The least significant bit is dialed into a single 12Vers
acceptance (or whatever 1 unit is for you) and bit 1 is for 2 units...
like so
bit0 14.77
bit1 29.54
bit2 59.08
bit3 118.16
bit4 236.32
bit5 472.64
The micro can select from 1 to 63 batteries worth of acceptance voltage
with this bitcode.
Second imagine #12 wire to each battery thru a relay board like Lee's
balancer.
Third we imagine the micro has 2 voltmeters 1 for the charger and one
that can scan all the batteries in the pack with smaller transistors and
wires.
Now we implement a divide and conquer approach
Lets assume 25 batteries :
set charger to volts(25units) this is 11001 binary, turn on those
transistors(236.32+118.16+14.77=369.25 = 25*14.77, Check)
Charge whole pack, scanning all batteries for voltage limit of any one
battery
when a battery hits acceptance, divide the pack into two virtual halves
lets say number 6 is full
now charge 1-5 when that finishes charge 7-25
Notice during the chargeing of 1-5 or 7-25 a battery will become full
before the rest.Thus 1-5 or 7-25 will eqach be split.
eventually we get down to chargeing 1 battery and we are done. (This
means the micro must be able to handle recursion using a stack. Probably
8051 not PIC)
We keep track of amperage in a shunt on the negative lead of the charger
and the voltage as we charge each string for individual Ah collection.
Pro's
This should be faster
This will work with out of balanced packs and can suggest how to
rearrang the pack for even faster charge times. ie largest battery is
battery 1 and smallest battery is battery 25 so that we charge 1-25 then
1-24 then 1-23 ... until we are chargeing 1-1 and done.
It will serve as the emeter also
Cons,
Lots of extra wires, may not be two bad if split into 2 units, one
for front batteries and one for rear batteries and a kelvin sense
connection is used.
requires programming. depends on micro, Must consider some spectacular
failure modes and program like otmar programs his controllers.
If you have 10 batteries, this is a waste of money, if you have 25 it is
good, somewhere inbetween is well, somewhere in between.
One idea I was thinking was to increase the bit resolution allowing for
a variety of packs and to implement a set of regulator boards that arn't
regulator boards. The are just interrupt boards with a voltage
comparater and a binary code over a 1-wire connection back to the charge
controller, In this way a fast micro can make possible the charge
monitoring of the 100+ cell packs without as much cost.
There would be a "valet" input tp select a second current control for
oppertunity chargeing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part 2
At 6:30 the Rave was ready , and even though I wasn't :-) we
took off. I'd left my cell phone at home and told Charles to head on and
I'd
catch up as my house was only one block off the main road . That was my
first mistake .
Part 2 " where is this guy"
Ok , I got my phone , and I'm in long distance mode , I time the lights some
what,
getting out of town , doing the dance , and I hit 70 , a call to Charles ,
he's doing 50 or so he say:-) , so I'm pushing it at 55 pulling 150 amp ,
and waiting for
the truck to losses up , Where it that EV magic ! I got the tires pumped
up rock hard . When is this thing going to losses up and roll , maybe its
the cool weather , maybe I"m just pushing it but I'm not feeling the free
feeling and I'm not catching up ( I later found a wheel front bearing
dragging ) . Finnel after 20 miles I see the Rave 4 and pull up behind ,
The Rave is not braking the wind like a big simi truck , ye I see the amp
drop but not enough and after another 10 miles when we do the turn around I
look at my e meter and see 80 ah has been used !. At that rate I'd be lucky
to do 90 miles . I have seen my truck do 45mph using 75 to 100 amps and my
plan was to hold it at 75 amp , and hope for a little better the 45mph. I
didn't mind being beat by Rave but I sure didn't want to go less that 100
miles !,
. Long distance racing is planning , sticking with the plan , and some luck.
Charles was doing fine , I could see after the first 30 miles I didn't have
a chance , but winning is just part of the game , I wanted to set a recorded
for my self , so when I'd be talking to people I could say , " I drove 1xx
miles on a charge at ...... " but now I'd blown 1/3 of my power to go 1/4 of
the way . So I'm going to cut back to 40 mph and try to make up for all the
wasted power. I didn't know the rave ev had some much wh on board , and the
way Charles talked about my lead sled kicking his ass , but now the
table's
where turned , I had to put my tail between my legs and just do the best I
could , while I watched the Rave pass me by and head off down the road. We
had decided to have the turn around point on the edge of town so no lights
to go through and watching my ah and miles , things where looking better ,
on the last leg I saw Larry the bass player in the group I play in coming
the other way . While Charles had figured how to get every last wh from his
pack , Larry had called me and said " the blue light on the charger,s not on
yet but I guess I'm going to start now anyway tell me what to look for on
the meter ?" . Larry is learning all this new ev stuff , like reading the e
meter , he picked the 1 hour class , and the only other entry. He's
driving my 108v Toyota terrecell , which I think with the right driver could
have done pretty good ,. Larry's got the spirited but needs allot more time
learning all the stuff we ev'er know, to get those extra miles . Well I'm
on the last leg and volts are dropping , I drop my speed to keep them up ,
poking along , back to the green shed and charging . 117 miles , I had that
same feeling I did at the BBB drag races , I knew I could have done better
just by my driving , but that will have to be for next year .
part 3 the event ,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Wouldn't it also be a generator at 2850 rpm, but at a lower
> frequency? Since he only needs DC, the frequency doesn't matter
> (much) so he can turn it at just about any speed.
A given induction motor works as an induction generator at any speed.
However, its volts/frequency ratio is a fixed number. If its nameplate
is 120vac 60hz 3450 rpm 10hp, then it runs equally well at 100vac 50hz
2850 rpm 8hp.
As you say, the frequency doesn't really matter if you're just going to
rectify it anyway. But the desired voltage still determines the speed
you have to spin it at.
> I guess the capacitor values might change though...
If it runs as a motor with a lagging power factor of 0.8, then you need
enough capacitance to make it see a *leading* power factor of 0.8 to
work as an induction generator. The amount of capacitance this takes
depends on the frequency and load current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks.
i've forwarded this on to my friends dave and heather in cathey's
valley. they have an electric Ranger pickup and may be interested.
Marc
On May 7, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Bill & Nancy wrote:
May 21st and 22nd in Hughson CA. just outside Modesto
Marc Geller wrote:
Where and when is this fruit and nut fest?
Marc
On May 7, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Bill & Nancy wrote:
I was asked if I would bring my ev to a fruit and nut festival
in the area. The car is a 56 vw beetle conversion running at 72
volts. It's a work in progress, with the back end full of
batteries, not clamped down or covered. The paint is rough but
not out of line for a 50 year old car. Any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wayne,
FYI, a good rule-of-thumb for long-range EVs is to have your pack weigh
30% or more of the total vehicle weight.
My Geo Prizm used to have a 120v pack of 20 Optima Yellow Tops in 10 buddy
pairs. The pack weighed 900lbs, and the whole car weighed 3300lbs (battery
weight was about 27% of total vehicle weight). I could go about 26 miles
before the pack was exhausted, and it lasted all of a few months...
My Prizm currently has a 156v pack of 26 Optima YTs in 13 buddy paris.
The pack weighs 1170lbs, and the total car weight is 3580lbs (battery
weight is almost 33% of total vehicle weight). I drove one long test
trip of 32 miles and the pack votage indicated about 75% DOD. My normal
trip is about 17 miles with about 50% DOD.
If you're leaning towards a 120v pack of Optimas or Excides, I doubt you'll
get the 30 mile range you're hoping for. The pack will likely cost more
than your budget as well.
Maybe 8v floodeds would work?
Ralph
Wayne writes:
>
> All,
>
> As I progress at a maddeningly glacial pace towards my EV conversion,
> it has become overly apparent that weight, among many other factors,
> is a serious consideration, not only in moving mass but weight
> limitations on the donor vehicle and, ultimately, range.
>
> The donor vehicle will be between 2000 and 2500 (pre-de-ICing)
> lbs. My needs are for a 30 mile (winter-time) to 40 mile (fair
> weather) range. I'm aiming for a 120v pack. 20 six volt batteries
> are simply too heavy (for the donor vehicle) for my purposes, thus my
> desire for 12v batteries.
>
> I had been leaning strongly towards Optima Yellow Tops or
> Orbital/Exide XCD's...The Yellow Tops appeal strongly to me owing to
> the ability to orient the batteries with no regard to spillage.
>
> However, I have been warned that Optimas and Orbitals are poor
> choices for EV's due to a limited per-volt range capacity and overall
> short-life. Also, I have been told that these batteries require
> individual charge regulators and are easily damaged by improper
> charging/discharging.
>
> Regardless the final battery configuration, sealed or capped, I will
> be using some form of balancing regulation (specific methodology yet
> to be determined) and will be constantly monitoring the pack charge
> so as to not exceed 80% discharge so the last listed issues are of
> lesser concern to me. It is the supposed limited range and short
> life that concerns me the most.
>
> Soooooo, what's the recommended 12v battery? Surely there's
> something out there that will do the job without being so
> prohibitively expensive as to abandon the project (my budget for
> batteries is capped at $2000.00).
>
> Many thanks for your considered respons(es),
>
> Wayne White
>
> If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
> suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> May 21st and 22nd in Hughson CA. just outside Modesto
>
> Marc Geller wrote:
>
> > Where and when is this fruit and nut fest?
>
According to Neon John, California is all about "fruits" and "nuts"...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wayne wrote:
> The donor vehicle will be between 2000 and 2500 (pre-de-ICing) lbs.
> My needs are for a 30 mile (winter-time) to 40 mile (fair weather)
> range.
Ok; let's start there. To get a 30 mile range, you'll need about 30% of
the total vehicle weight in lead-acid batteries. If the basic vehicle
weighs 2000 lbs (everything but batteries), that takes 857 lbs of
batteries. 857# batteries / (857# batteries + 2000# vehicle) = 0.3 =
30%.
A 6v golf cart battery weighs about 61 lbs. So that's 857# / 61# = 14
batteries. That's a 14 x 6v = 84v system. Golf cart batteries cost about
$60, so you'll spend 14 x $60 = $840 on batteries.
Or, you could use sealed 12v AGM batteries. An Optima weighs about 44#.
857# / 44# = 20 batteries. That's a 240v system (or 120v if you wire
them in two parallel strings). Optimas cost around $120 each, so you'll
spend $2400 on batteries.
Same weight = same range. But the Optimas cost about 3x more than the
floodeds.
> However, I have been warned that Optimas and Orbitals are poor
> choices for EV's due to a limited per-volt range capacity and
> overall short-life. Also, I have been told that these batteries
> require individual charge regulators and are easily damaged by
> improper charging/discharging.
For range, put in the same weight of Optimas, and your range will be the
same. But many people cut back on the weight, either to save money or
have a lighter vehicle so it can accellerate faster. They trade off
range to get faster accelleration.
AGMs often have short life because people skimp on the charger and
battery management. It is much easier to destroy AGMs from abuse. With
AGMs, it's a false economy to use a cheap charging system.
If you do all the "right things", then AGMs can last as long or longer
than typical 12v flooded batteries. However, the 6v golf cart battery
will still outlive the AGMs, as they are one of the few types literally
designed for electric vehicle use.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Here's a 'crazy' idea:
Use a set of 'doughnut' spare tires instead of standard tires.
My Solectria Force currently has Dunlop SP40 A/S, P155/80 R13 tires and the
spare is a T115/70D14. By my math, the tire width is 26% smaller with the
spare than with the existing tires. Rolling resistance should approximately be
directly proportional to tire width, so I would see a 26% gain in rolling
resistance.
Max load is over 1000 lbs each, and the car is 2470 lbs total. Tire pressure
is rated at 60PSI Max on the spare tire instead of 35PSI on the standards.
How's this sound?
Thanks,
Todd
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Todd Martin wrote:
How's this sound?
Does it say anything on the side of the tire such as "for temporary
use only" and "do not exceed 45 mph"? When they wear out, where do
you buy more at and how much do they cost? How deep is the tread on
them anyways?
If you want a narrow tire, check out the old VW bug tire size.
P165R15 (it's metric, hence no aspect ratio(E.g. 50 or 60 or 70,
etc)).
This car has them on the front using 3.5" wide front wheels:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7070/red0dl.jpg
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I get 0 results for a search on solectria on the bay mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:54 PM
Subject: Solectria Force on eBay
> I just put my 1999 Solectria Force up for sale on eBay. It has been
> a good car for me, but now that I have another electric car and a
> hybrid, it is time to cut back. If interested, check:
>
> http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?
> uid=47749019&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4638308645&lk=URL
>
> Regards,
> Carl
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
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On Sun, 07 May 2006 10:42:52 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>About 10 years ago, Cruising Equipment Company (of E-meter fame) sold
>what they called an Ideal Regulator. It was an external voltage
>regulator for automotive alternators that gave them a proper battery
>charging algorithm. They had versions of the E-meter that had this
>regulator built-in!
>Alas, Cruising Equipment is gone; bought out by Heart Interface and then
>Xantrex. I don't know if these products are still available under a new
>name, or have disappeared entirely.
CE's competitor is still around and from the appearance of things, has
the market pretty much to himself:
http://www.amplepower.com/
I have both a CE regulator and an Ample Power Next Step V2. Though
the two do basically the same thing, it's not really fair to compare
the two.
The CE regulator is analog, has no temperature compensation, does a
fixed time absorption phase, no equalization mode other than tweaking
the pots, no test points which means that the voltage points have to
be set with the thing controlling a battery charge and lacks any
ability to limit the alternator output.
The Next Step is digital, has temperature compensation, does the
proper absorption stage, terminated on diminishing current, has a
"light preserver" mode that limits the bulk/absorption voltage when
incandescent lamps are on the circuit, controls multiple battery
isolation relays, does auto-start, equalization, setpoints for bench
calibrating the unit without having to wait on a charge to complete
and a whole bunch more.
Yeah, I like his product. A lot. At one point I tried to negotiate a
deal to use a modified version of his product on my Cordless Battery
Charger. Alas, he's one of those small businessmen who stays small by
playing "I've got a secret." Sooooo, I spent about 6 months of spare
time designing my own but that's another story.
Since this is OT, I assume we're talking about charging 12 or 24 volt
systems such as on RVs and boats. He's the only person other than
myself who I've found talking about bulb life in a smart charger
environment.
In a nutshell, incandescent lamps don't live well in a system with a
smart charger. Westinghouse modeled tungsten bulb life vs voltage a
long time ago and determined that life varies as the 13th power of
voltage deviation from the ideal. That means that just a little
increase in voltage results in drastically shorter lives. "12 volt"
bulbs are designed for the standard 13.2 volts that on average makes
it to the socket when the system is regulated to 13.8. Bulb life is
why OEMs use allegedly dumb charging systems. Actually, the OEM
systems are quite "smart", but simply to a different standard of
performance.
Since the bulk/absorption transition point may be a volt or more
higher, bulbs don't last long. I warn people about that who buy my
CBC. The Cruising Equipment guy warns his customers and includes a
"bulb friendly" mode that limits the voltage to 13.8 plus or minus
temperature compensation. This essentially turns the system into a
standard car charging system. As he mentions, the best way to use a
smart regulator is with two batteries, running the house off one while
charging the other.
I took a different approach in my motorhome. I simply eliminated all
the incandescent lamps I could and regulated the voltage to those few
(instrument panel, etc) that weren't convenient. Only the headlights
remain unregulated and I have plans for those :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
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On 05/07/06 at 15:04 you wrote:
John and others,
Having April 15th still fresh in my mind, I'm not sure how you got the
$3400! Just like last year, a hi-bride like the Prius will get you
$2000
off your WAGES (line 36 on 1040 form, EV's use form 8834), which for
my
wife was ONLY $300 back on last years Federal tax return. Now the
state of
Colorado has up to a $3285 "credit" on an '06 Prius and it carries
forward
for five years if you've paid less than that in taxes (you can only
get
back what you've paid in).
Just rereading the rules:
For a clean-fuel vehicle placed into service in calendar year 2005,
there is a clean-fuel deduction of $2000 - that comes off of your
income, and the actual amount your taxes are reduced depends on your tax
rate.
In 2006 (and through 2009), a vehicle put into service can get *up to* a
$3400 credit - this goes direct against your tax bill, rather than
coming off of your taxable income. So far, the IRS has not approved the
amount of $3400 for any vehicle, but a Prius gets $3150 - when you file
next year, if you bought this year.
Of course, the rules are even more complicated, it is the IRS after
all. It also depends on the sales of the vehicle, so you only get the
full value of the credit if you purchase up to the end of the first
quarter after 60,000 eligible vehicles are sold, and it is reduced after
that - Toyota sold 107k of them last year, so likely that will start
diminising q3 of this year.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
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On Sun, 07 May 2006 11:45:53 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Ideally, EVers should lobby to change the tax laws to either permit EVs
>to count as "clean fuel" vehicles for the deduction, or to allow EV
>conversions to qualify for the credit. The trouble is, EVers aren't
>organized. How do we get enough people to get off their butts and write
>to their congressmen?
Or we could quit trying to suckle the public tit and spend our
lobbying efforts at reducing all government spending.
>It is a MAJOR effort to get a law written and passed. It take a lot of
>time, money, and hard work. It's going to take someone with a lot of
>political savvy, lobbying experience, and skill in writing a bill in the
>obtuse legalese that they employ in the government. I don't think EVers
>have the resources or willpower to do it from scratch.
This is quite fortunate, for is does put some brakes on some special
interests seeking middle class welfare.
>My second thought is that offering some kind of prize can be a
>*powerful* incentive to encourage progress in a desired direction.
>Consider the Kramer prize, which I think was originally $10,000 for the
>first human-powered flight, or the more recent $1 million X-prize for
>the first non-government human flight into space. Or, the Great Electric
>Car Race of 1968, which pitted the finest engineering schools in the
>country to race each other coast-to-coast.
Now you're getting the idea. Find someone or several someones who
think that the goal is worthy and let them put up the money. No
government tit sucking necessary.
I've created a micro version of the X prize for an open source
software project unrelated to EVs. It's only a kilobuck (out of my
pocket) but it's having the desired effect.
Associate a few prestigious and credible names with the project, don't
get wrapped up in eco-whackiness that turns conventional people off
and the amount of money doesn't matter that much. Winning does.
>I propose a new "Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Patriotic Freedom Energy
>Independence Demonstration Act". The government offers prizes for any
>vehicles that can meet defined standards, grants to help student and
>startups to build their prototypes, and races to show what the vehicles
>can do. Say, a coast-to-coast race. The winners get prize money and
>orders to build vehicles for demonstration projects.
Oh well, there goes the whacky side. Why not leave off all the
patriotism and eco-crap and name it after the desired goal? Say, the
"T" prize for the first BEV that can go "T"hree Hundred Miles on a
Charge. Or whatever the goal. I think that a BEV competitively
priced with gas cars that can do 300 miles will pass the threshold of
the general public's acceptance.
>Industry and private individuals can "chip in" to make the prizes
>bigger, or offer sponsorship ("Trojan batteries, proud sponsor of"...),
>or related prizes to encourage certain directions for the research ("and
>an extra $1000 if it uses hydrogen"...)
Keep it simple. One simple set of goals and one prize. That makes it
easy for sponsor, participants and the public to understand. The X
prize was prototypical. One simple goal - put a private craft in
space. DARPA demonstrated how NOT to do it the first year of that
autonomous vehicle race. The rules and goals were so complicated that
no two competitors or even judges understood them. Year two, they
simplified and got a winner.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
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I tell ya what I need is the ability to change charge rates.
Idling the engine is really expensive and somewhat loud. In these cases
where I'm not running the engine for any other purpose, I don't care so
much about watering or long term battery health issues. It's not done
all that often. I want a really high current but terminated charge.
Boosting the voltage to make that happen could be justified.
Other times I'm just driving home or whatnot and would certainly go with
a more conventional charge cycle. I'd need a switch to tell it what I
needed.
Danny
Neon John wrote:
The Next Step is digital, has temperature compensation, does the
proper absorption stage, terminated on diminishing current, has a
"light preserver" mode that limits the bulk/absorption voltage when
incandescent lamps are on the circuit, controls multiple battery
isolation relays, does auto-start, equalization, setpoints for bench
calibrating the unit without having to wait on a charge to complete
and a whole bunch more.
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--- Begin Message ---
look for item # 4638308645
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4638308645
mike young wrote:
I get 0 results for a search on solectria on the bay mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:54 PM
Subject: Solectria Force on eBay
I just put my 1999 Solectria Force up for sale on eBay. It has been
a good car for me, but now that I have another electric car and a
hybrid, it is time to cut back. If interested, check:
http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?
uid=47749019&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4638308645&lk=URL
Regards,
Carl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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Sorry if this is a repeat, but CNN had a noticibly positive article
about EVs:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/index.htm?cnn=yes
Danny
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