EV Digest 5464
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC Regen
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) US Electricar weight, was: two on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: [Hybrid] Honda to put Insight powertrain in new Fit/Jazz
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Minimum Power
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
I am currently investigating EDrive Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) for
the Prius. It is suposed to have a spoofing unit this summer
for $10k-$12K. The downer on this one is that as far as I have
heard, they will only have one certified installed who works
out of Southern California.
However, if you can figure out how to do it like you just
described and I can get a kit out here in Chicago with the
option to purchase my own Hawkers or Lions and integrate them
around a pfc20/pfc30...you've got my attention sir...
Thanks!
Joel
Rich Rudman wrote:
Sorry Rod, But I am Hijacking this thread to the SEVA list and to the Main
EVlist.
Madman
Warning... no time to spell check... phone ringing...
In the last couple of Days like since Sunday... I have had my hands in
Ryan's Pirus pretty deeply.
First I will be up in PT for sure with Ryan... I just did about 250 miles in
it, In a Ride over to Wenatchee and back. So.. I am getting some hands on
time with the PiPrius.
First the Calcars system, One didn't work as it came back from California...
And actualy ate it self for dinner about last Wensday. The contactors
actaully left the running System totally disconnected from both packs for a
Brief instant.. and things smoked and failed. Ryan got it running again as a
normal Prius after pulling some fuses and resetting suff. Lucky him.
About that time I was asked if we could try my idea of using a PFC30
charger as a buffer DC/DC converter to pull from the Add a Pack and then
charge the Prius's NiMH pack, Being very carfull to not over voltage the
Spendy NiMH. OK .. that's just what my chargers do very well. They have a
pretty solid and adjustable voltage regulation setting. We just needed to
find the Right voltage and current to NOT hurt Mr. Toyota Nice Idea...
wonder if it works. Sunday I found Ryan and his 100 mpg Prius in my shop...
Lets find out shall we?? OK..er... I hope I don't hurt What I can't fix.
I dicharged the 20 amphour at 228 volt pack of B&B AGMs, I got 2700
watt hours on the first pass. And recharged them with a PFC30 to 280 volts.
(14.73 volts) They took power very well, and we did not let them taper below
about 5 amps... they are new and show "Growth" at the end of a charge cycle
by not tapering off fast. They just take it and take it..... I lost
patientece.. and we went to the next step.
I fed the PFC30 from the PbLa pack.. without any issues... Ok folks
that't the first time I have officially run one of my chargers off of DC,
and Well it all worked. I even manged to open the AC rated breaker on 218
voltd DC.. that makes a Loud POP, with Blue stuff leaking out of the breaker
case... 36 DC feed amp IS more than a 30 amp Beaker can stand for about 5
minutes... abit of excitment.. No damage... Lots'O pucker factor.. This
output was stuffed in my loadbank with our 15kw Windloader. OK.. all works
as planned on the test bench. Now out to the Pirius. First we dailed in the
best guess voltage the Prius's NiMH pack would want to see as the output
limit on the PFC charger. We picked 242 from watching the CAN buss Scanner
that Ryan has installed on the Prius.
We ripped oout all the "other" circuits and spoofing controls and
contactors and anything that waws not stock Toyota. All the Calcars stuff
that was in the Prius from the Make magazine install was taken out. We left
the prototype DeltaQ charger in and the Battery pack of course. So .. there
is LOTS Of room behind the pack that was stuffed full of circuit boards and
contactors and such.
And we simply wired the output of the PFC30 to the NiMH pack. and wired
the AC input of the PFC30 to the 218 volt Lead acid add on pack....and
flipped the breaker on the charger.
All fired up, Then we dailed in some amps while watching the volts display
on the Can View that is being piped to the Main Prius display screen.
The volts came up, the SOC came up... Just as planned... Then we took a
ride....
It was that simple...
Prius Plug in Hybrid... Working... After a LOT of fear and testing.. it
really was that simple.
The tuning part of getting the charge computer to keep the ICE engine off,
that took a little more tweaking. We adjusted the charge voltage down to
about 234, and the current up to max. and it worked better, But the SOC
would drift up too far and the engine would kick on to drop the pack back
down, thinking it had over charged the NiMH, Then we would turn off the
charger, and the SOC would drift dwon until the ICE came on to restore the
pack. Well OK this is what you would exxpect for about 10 minutes of
practice.... We upped the voltage to 237, and used the Accelerator harder
when the SOC drifted up too much, and clearly we needed more Learning time.
This ended at about 10:30 PM Sunday.
Day one.. success... no smoke, and we can really charge the NiMH from the
PbLA... and keep it all under control.
Day two.. I am on the 7:10 am Ferry heading to Steve Lough's place to hook
up with Ryan... and his trusty PFC30 enhanced Prius. We are going to
Wenatchee, Wa on the other side of the Cascades to give a Ride and PiP Show
for the Chelan county Dept of comerce and the Wenatche PUD, at the Wenatche
Valley college. Cool ....And of course we ..er I needed as much time as
possible tweaking the "Sytem"...
Got there it was snowing like Heck up in Stevens pass.. 4000 Ft mountain
passes... not a real good mile per Gallon number... and while Regening down
the East slopes... Not enough room to store many Kwhr of power... 5 amphrs
of NiMH is NOT a really big storage bank... Hummm new Mode of charger...suck
from NiMH and recharge the PbLa... Need more contactors... But ... not while
under way.
First thing is to get the Pb recharged.. OK that's what we are going to
us the DeltaQ for, It's installed, and Well it gets to do grid work while
the PFC does the big current chores that it is buildt for.
We can't get more than about 2 amps into the pack..OK we be charged!......or
so we thought...
We back out into the Windy sunny East slope spring Day, Wow this place
is Stunningly beautifull. Where's the wind farm when you need it? Better
than that.. The Chelan county PUD has 4 Hydro plants , 2 on the main
Columbia River.. the high drop from Lake Chelan to the River... 100 of ft
of drop...And one other that is pretty amazing on the upper end of the lake
serving..Stehikin. And well it's been a heavy snow year.. and they just
can't sell all they can make... in fact they have water going over the tops
of dams.. and the main big feed from the pac NW to California is at
capacity... They have Get this residentail goes for 2.8 Cents a Kwhr, and
comercial is at 1.8 cents. Can you say a EVers Dream!! That a half cent
for a mile in my EVs. Drooooool!!!
We found a empty parking lot and started doing laps... mile one... no ICE.
Mile two No ice... had to turn down the volts.. and Maxed out the PFC30s
currrent... Mile 3... charger actually starts to ramp the fans up... Mile 4
the charger is clearly giving us more range... Fans are getting to full
power.... Mile 5.. SNAP!.. opened the 30 amp breaker again... with a 36 amp
draw. Reset breaker... turned PFC down to about %75... As the SOC rises...
we turn the PFC current to 0... as the SOC Fall below about 55% we repower
up the PFC.... Mile 6.... time to go home....or back to the College service
shop.
Got 6.4 miles... the ICE never rotated. The NiMH is fully charged when we
get back.. the charger has spooled down...No errors... Wow we just added
about trippled the total EV only range a Prius has.
Not bad for run #2, and about 24 hours of my time.
We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK... but we don't want to
upset the carfull settings on the PFC30. This becomes the first mistake of
the day. We munch donuts and Coke.... Thanks guys!
The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts. The crowd shows
up for the presentation... the DQ still is taking it's bloddy time.... It
just won't make solid big amps, it gets hot.... and won't drive the lead
over 240 volts... I suspect the "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's set to
the wrong voltage... and there are other issues... Simple fact it can't fill
our pack, and in fact has not added more than about 500 watthours to the
pack since I did the last full power PFC30 backed charge over aday ago at
this point. The best guess is we traveled about 10 mile on EV only mode on
a single charge to the PbLa pack.. or something like 200 watt hours per
mile..
Clearly If I had wired the PFC to the lead pack and used the grid, we
would have gotten a full pack in about 90 minutes. Even off of 120VAC at 15
amps. Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs, No amps, No volts no SOC...not meteres
what so ever.. just a pair of DVMs and a lot of poking. NO BMS and no
meters. And they were on there 2 cycle in thier life... We could have had
much metter insturmentation. but... It worked any way...
So the PFC charge support from Grid to Add a pack works, The PFC from add a
pack to to Hybrid pack works... and Well What can I say??? It can be done
and has been done.
Now I need to add contactors to allow for auto switching from Grid to
add on pack, some logic to reprogram the charger's setpoint from one
chemistry to the other... and maybe ports so a custom Can view or rewrite of
the Toyota control can stear the charger... and some fuses and fans.. and
the one PFC series charger can do all 3 modes of power processing.
What I thought was a daunting computer hashing and Spoofing effort has
become a interesting way to make a Stock PFC30 charger make it all happen.
Clearly this kind of Plug In Hybrid system can be used on just about any
Hybrid, with a wildly varying Source pack.. the charger can boost of Buck
DC... You could have a 96 volt pack of floodeds charing a 360 volt pack of
Lions... Or a 360 volt pack of Lions charging a 218 volt pack of NiMH. It
doesn't really matter. Just adjust the target voltage right.. and you are
off.
Enough for now...I intend to have a Kit of everything you need including
Battery pack and mounting hardware, Cables and relays available for this.
The first effort will use Quality Hawker PbLa Batteries as the addon pack,
and it will be taylored to the Prius... for now.
I am Lusting over a Ford Escape Hybrid.. and the large Back trunk area and
heavy duty SUV springs that can hold a really significant pack. AnyBody want
to hand me a Escape Hybrid??? I got to drive Randy Brooks new one, I am in
Lust.!!! 500 lbs of Lion back there??? Ev all the way to Wenatchee...from
Seattle. Got room for Skiis and a couple Dozzen PFC cases can be kept out
of the rain on the commute from Portland to Seattle.
Dizzy... Madman
Need sleep... Need to ship those Green boxes......
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been able to distinguish the 800 Hz whistle and it
is definitely a much lower pitch than that. It's a little
higher then the grind from the typical reverse from a
compact FWD's manual transmission.
I do have a manual and I could fax you the pages of the
schematics that I have.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If it's a soft "screee" sort of sound, it could be the
> brushes sliding on the commutator. That is also normal.
>
> I just had an up-close look at an EVcort, and it is
> indeed nicely done. But this one isn't running. Was
> working, then it just "cut out" while
> driving according to the owner. Everything is boxed up so
> tightly that it is hard to probe anything, and there are
> no schematics. Can anyone who has one help?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK...
> The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts.
> The crowd shows up for the presentation... the DQ still is
> taking it's bloddy time.... It just won't make solid big
> amps, it gets hot....
FYI, Rich, the Delta-Q charger is a 1kW unit: quit complaining about
"only" 1100W already! ;^>
1kW @ 240VDC nominal output is 4A max output; it doesn't make "big"
amps. And, it's a fully sealed unit that in this installation is
mounted sideways such that its heatsinks cannot work as designed, so it
has to rely on the external fans that [were supposed] to be part of the
CalCars install.
> and won't drive the lead over 240 volts... I suspect the
> "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's set to the wrong
> voltage... and there are other issues...
Calcars was unsure if they would use a 19 or 20 module srting, so the
charger is programmed with algorithms for both. If the charger is set
for the wrong algorithm, then clearly it will not charge to the proper
voltage. If there is any question about the Delta-Q charger, Ryan has
the contact info needed to receive all the technical support he should
need.
> Simple fact it can't fill our pack,
Nonsense. Unless it is broken it will.
> Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs
The charge algorithm in this charger is specifically designed for
charging a string of AGMs *without* regs. This, besides that it is only
a 1kW rated unit is why it takes longer than you would like to charge.
You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
expense if you wish ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the likelihood that a PFC-30 dumping power from
a PBA pack into the Prius' NiMH pack will imbalance the
Prius 5AH pack over time?
Is the NiMH chemistry easy to imbalance, or is it more
stable like a gel cel chemistry?
You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
expense if you wish ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Tell me what you want to do with TWO trucks with bad batteries ;-)
Anyway - my guess of 5000 lbs is too high, I finally got around to
make a little detour and drive my car onto the scale at the Sunnyvale
garbage drop-off place (SMART center) so guess what?
With yours truely onboard (plus laptop and a few tools) the weight
of my S-10 is 5080 lbs.
Without me and my stuff the weight is about 4880 lbs and since my pack
is about 1850 lbs (26x 110 Ah 12V) the weight without batteries is
3030 lbs.
(This includes a very serious 3-phase inductance under the hood, intended
for the 20 kW charger/inverter.)
So the S-10 on Ebay can never be 6000 lbs or his scale is broken, as the
70 Ah batteries are lighter than mine.
I also weighed the rear axle alone (still with me in the car): 2680 lbs.
To remove my weight and my stuff I probably need to subtract 80 lbs from
the rear and 120 lbs from the front (cabin position more towards the front)
so the curb weight is likely:
4880 lbs total
2280 lbs front
2600 lbs rear
Note that I have an extra battery box >behind< the rear axle, so this
effectively reduces the front weight by a few pounds and add at least
300 lbs to the rear. (4x 71 lbs battery + box + front weight reduction)
In other words: normal US Electricar trucks have almost perfect 50/50
front/rear weight, while mine is slightly heavier in the rear, although
with me onboard (and there is always a driver when its on the road ;-)
the weight is still 47/53 (2400/2680)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 1:35 PM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
Here's another USE Truck on Ebay. 4638493123
I know I'm tempted ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
>
> Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
>
> It sure is a far cry from a clean RAV4 EV with new NiMH pack!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:56 AM
> To: Cor van de Water
> Subject: Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
>
>
> 6000 lbs??? Say what?? Cor, we need to find a scale!
>
> I've played with the top speed constant, so the redline can be
> changed, so maybe it does 80mph. In stock form it will sputter up to
> 75mph. Might be bit hard on the motor though at 80mph.
>
> With gas prices at $3.25 around here for regular, it will be
> interesting to see how much is sells for.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > Looks like it's in decent shape, even though the
> > seller is a bit clueless: I count 26 batteries (312V)
> > which are more than likely bad at this moment and no
> > way it is ever going to do 80 MPH (redline is 72) or
> > 70 miles per charge on 70 Ah of batteries.
> > But for the price it is a very interesting deal,
> > including built-in Emeter and 3 chargers, two of
> > which Magnechargers!
> >
> > Beats me why someone would shave doorhandles on a truck,
> > maybe on a racing 2-seater it would make a difference,
> > but on a truck?
> > What's next? Carbon-fiber hood?
> > Kind of putting deep dish rims on your garden tractor
> > or rust-bucket-daily-driver-beater, but I digress.
> >
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ4638014037QQrdZ1
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Prius pack has BMS and per-cell regulation, unless
you remove or disable that it should still keep the pack
in balance.
(When the pack is in the Prius, you better have the BMS
working or the car won't work)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
What is the likelihood that a PFC-30 dumping power from
a PBA pack into the Prius' NiMH pack will imbalance the
Prius 5AH pack over time?
Is the NiMH chemistry easy to imbalance, or is it more
stable like a gel cel chemistry?
> You can charge the pack quicker with your PFC30, but you *will* kill the
> pack in short order if you do not use regs with it. CalCars has already
> proven this, but you're welcome to repeat the experiment at Ryan's
> expense if you wish ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope this is right. I read somewhere that Honda was going to use a larger
engine for the Fit hybrid than in the Insight, and that the hybrid is due
here around April 2007. The Fit here has a larger engine than in Europe.
The Fit is a larger car than I had imagined. As I recall, it gets about 32
or 33 mpg (city) and 38 or 39 mpg (highway). I would hope the hybrid version
would do better than the 50s. It's been a few days since I stopped at Honda
to see one. I can fit in it comfortably (6 ft 3 in at 230 lbs).
Although Honda is still making the Insight, dealers here (Baltimore, MD)
don't stock it, so a buyer must special order one sight unseen. Don't know
how long it would take to get it. No wonder they aren't selling many.
The Fit would also make a fantastic glider. I believe better than the Scion
Xb that AC Propulsion was considering.
Dave
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: [Hybrid] Honda to put Insight powertrain in new Fit/Jazz
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:41:07 -0500
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/05/honda_fit_hybri.php
Honda Fit Hybrid: Mid-2007, Hybrid CR-V: Late 2006
May 5, 2006 03:14 PM - Michael G. Richard, near Ottawa
Bradley Berman, the editor of HybridCars.com (you can see a video
interview with him at the New York Auto Show), has received
confirmation from an anonymous industry insider that Honda will
produce a hybrid version of the Fit (also known as the Honda Jazz - we
wrote about the possibility of a hybrid version a couple of months
ago). It is scheduled for release in mid-2007.
The insider said:
If you take the measurement from the wheel hub to the wheel hub of the
Fit and the Insight, they are the same to the millimeter. The Fit is
going to get the Insight engine. It's already a proven powertrain. It
will probably get fuel economy in the low to mid-50s.
According to the same source, Honda will probably continue to make the
Insight hybrid even though sales are very slow (less than 100 per
month) for the bragging right of having the most fuel efficient hybrid
(though it's arguable that the Toyota Prius is relatively more
efficient if you consider that it is heavier, roomier, more powerful
and doesn't use as much expensive aluminum to reduce weight).
In the interview, HybridCars.com learned that Honda would also release
a hybrid version of its CR-V mini-SUV [pictured above] in late 2006.
Honda has not publicly confirmed its plans for hybrid versions of the
Fit or CR-V. [...] Even with the Fit's hybrid premium, its price will
beat out the Civic Hybrid by approximately $5,000 and a Prius by
$7,000 or more. The gas-only Fit is powered by a 109-horsepower
1.5-liter, four-cylinder VTEC engine. The hybrid version. according to
the HybridCars.com interview, will utilize a 1.0-liter engine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stefan,
My S-10 truck (5080 lbs with me on board) and AC drive
(slightly more efficient than DC but not by much) needs
about 20 kWh for a constant 60 MPH on a flat freeway (101)
So your vehicle that weighs less than 1/2 and drives at 2/3
of the speed should be able to do that continuous with less
than 1/3 of the power, in other words: your first assumption
is very likely to give you what you expect, while the second
should be able to reach the speed, but acceleration may be
unaccepable unless allowing more current. 36V may not be
sufficient, but it also depends on the current.
One way to find out is to build it and improve it from there
like your plan already was.
To avoid buying the wrong controller you can buy the 4 batteries
and first install only 3 (you will need the 4th later anyway)
and use the principle of contactor on/off for a test of max
acceleration and speed.
That should give you the answers if you want a 36V controller
or 48V.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 1:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Minimum Power
In the pursuit of an EV grin, there are many variables. One of the
biggest for many is $$$. Now I know there are many that find the concept
of NEVs distasteful, so let's just call this a "partial conversion" ;)
Given a micro or mini donor car (1200 - 1800 lbs complete without bats &
motor), what kind of power (kW) is needed for in-town driving?
I'm talking 35MPH (maybe 40) top speed, mostly flat with the occasional
one or two block hill, using a common (6" - 8") series DC motor and 4 or
5 speed manual tranny. This is so that the car can get put to use in
*some* capacity while saving up for the "highway capable
controller/battery pack combo", instead of merely being used to stop the
grass from growing ;)
Would 48V, 150A constant - 400A peak be enough (7.2 - 19.2kW) to shuffle
such a car around the neighborhood? How about the overly optimistic 100A
constant - 300A peak (4.8 - 14.4kW) at 48V? This voltage should get the
motor (lightly loaded) up around 3000RPM, yes/no? How about 36V even?
Why? Well, given that the motor is already mounted to the tranny, then:
$320 Batts ($80 x 4)
$330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
~$300 48V Controller (TSE/Alltrax/Curtis)
-------------------------------------------
$950 town only setup
With this being the next step (in addition to the above already in the car):
$320 Batts ($80 x 4)
$330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
~$800 96V Controller (TSE/Curtis)
-------------------------------------------
$1450 light hwy setup
And then maybe add this:
$320 Batts ($80 x 4)
$330 Charger (4 bank multicharger)
~$2000 144V Controller (Curtis/Zilla)
--------------------------------------------
$2650 sporty setup
As opposed to this:
$960 Batts ($80 x 12)
~$1200 144V Charger
~$2000 144V Controller
-------------------------------------------
$4160 sporty setup from the start
Given that the last option results in the car sitting around for a
year... how much ICE cost is that at ~10miles/day?
3500 miles @ 24MPG = 145 gallons @ $3.10/gal = $450 + pollution generated.
But the main part is saving wear & tear on the ICE car + EV grin *now*!
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The stuff needs some refining.. and they need to lock out leathal fault
events.
or totally simpilfy the idea.
I don't want to slam folks that are really trying... I need them to help us
all along.
Ummm Brag mode ON:
Doing a DC to DC test on the system I got %97.68 Eff. Best I have ever
seen.
A little too good. I might need to do a AC watt lab type Scope based test
before I really hang my hat on that number.
The Charger got hot enough to ramp it's fan to full power... it's not
perfect.
The cooling blowers never came on, ,on the Prius. Max temp was like 86 F. we
were NOT hammering the system. Maybe pushing the charger a bit hard, But
that's my
Game.. I think we need about 20 more amps of transfer. Maybe a 80 amp liquid
cooled box... I dunno what the perfect transfer rate is.
Yea rite... I no how to spel.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Wow, great to hear of your success. Too bad for CalCars hardware.
>
> Any idea how much power your pfc eats shuttling current in either
> direction?
>
> Did you ever notice how much or how often the prius pack blower came
> on during your testing?? This is incredibly important. They get too
> hot and they die.
>
> Great story Rich!!
>
> Mike
>
> PS I didn't know you used a spell chekker before ;)
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry Rod, But I am Hijacking this thread to the SEVA list and to
> the Main
> > EVlist.
> > Madman
> >
> > Warning... no time to spell check... phone ringing...
> >
> > In the last couple of Days like since Sunday... I have had my hands in
> > Ryan's Pirus pretty deeply.
> >
> > First I will be up in PT for sure with Ryan... I just did about 250
> miles in
> > it, In a Ride over to Wenatchee and back. So.. I am getting some
> hands on
> > time with the PiPrius.
> >
> > First the Calcars system, One didn't work as it came back from
> California...
> > And actualy ate it self for dinner about last Wensday. The contactors
> > actaully left the running System totally disconnected from both
> packs for a
> > Brief instant.. and things smoked and failed. Ryan got it running
> again as a
> > normal Prius after pulling some fuses and resetting suff. Lucky him.
> >
> > About that time I was asked if we could try my idea of using a PFC30
> > charger as a buffer DC/DC converter to pull from the Add a Pack and then
> > charge the Prius's NiMH pack, Being very carfull to not over voltage the
> > Spendy NiMH. OK .. that's just what my chargers do very well. They
> have a
> > pretty solid and adjustable voltage regulation setting. We just
> needed to
> > find the Right voltage and current to NOT hurt Mr. Toyota Nice Idea...
> > wonder if it works. Sunday I found Ryan and his 100 mpg Prius in my
> shop...
> > Lets find out shall we?? OK..er... I hope I don't hurt What I can't fix.
> > I dicharged the 20 amphour at 228 volt pack of B&B AGMs, I got 2700
> > watt hours on the first pass. And recharged them with a PFC30 to 280
> volts.
> > (14.73 volts) They took power very well, and we did not let them
> taper below
> > about 5 amps... they are new and show "Growth" at the end of a
> charge cycle
> > by not tapering off fast. They just take it and take it..... I lost
> > patientece.. and we went to the next step.
> > I fed the PFC30 from the PbLa pack.. without any issues... Ok folks
> > that't the first time I have officially run one of my chargers off
> of DC,
> > and Well it all worked. I even manged to open the AC rated breaker
> on 218
> > voltd DC.. that makes a Loud POP, with Blue stuff leaking out of the
> breaker
> > case... 36 DC feed amp IS more than a 30 amp Beaker can stand for
> about 5
> > minutes... abit of excitment.. No damage... Lots'O pucker factor.. This
> > output was stuffed in my loadbank with our 15kw Windloader. OK.. all
> works
> > as planned on the test bench. Now out to the Pirius. First we
> dailed in the
> > best guess voltage the Prius's NiMH pack would want to see as the output
> > limit on the PFC charger. We picked 242 from watching the CAN buss
> Scanner
> > that Ryan has installed on the Prius.
> > We ripped oout all the "other" circuits and spoofing controls and
> > contactors and anything that waws not stock Toyota. All the Calcars
> stuff
> > that was in the Prius from the Make magazine install was taken out.
> We left
> > the prototype DeltaQ charger in and the Battery pack of course. So
> .. there
> > is LOTS Of room behind the pack that was stuffed full of circuit
> boards and
> > contactors and such.
> >
> > And we simply wired the output of the PFC30 to the NiMH pack.
> and wired
> > the AC input of the PFC30 to the 218 volt Lead acid add on pack....and
> > flipped the breaker on the charger.
> > All fired up, Then we dailed in some amps while watching the volts
> display
> > on the Can View that is being piped to the Main Prius display screen.
> > The volts came up, the SOC came up... Just as planned... Then we took a
> > ride....
> > It was that simple...
> > Prius Plug in Hybrid... Working... After a LOT of fear and testing.. it
> > really was that simple.
> >
> > The tuning part of getting the charge computer to keep the ICE
> engine off,
> > that took a little more tweaking. We adjusted the charge voltage down to
> > about 234, and the current up to max. and it worked better, But the SOC
> > would drift up too far and the engine would kick on to drop the pack
> back
> > down, thinking it had over charged the NiMH, Then we would turn off the
> > charger, and the SOC would drift dwon until the ICE came on to
> restore the
> > pack. Well OK this is what you would exxpect for about 10 minutes of
> > practice.... We upped the voltage to 237, and used the Accelerator
> harder
> > when the SOC drifted up too much, and clearly we needed more
> Learning time.
> > This ended at about 10:30 PM Sunday.
> > Day one.. success... no smoke, and we can really charge the NiMH
> from the
> > PbLA... and keep it all under control.
> >
> > Day two.. I am on the 7:10 am Ferry heading to Steve Lough's place
> to hook
> > up with Ryan... and his trusty PFC30 enhanced Prius. We are going to
> > Wenatchee, Wa on the other side of the Cascades to give a Ride and
> PiP Show
> > for the Chelan county Dept of comerce and the Wenatche PUD, at the
> Wenatche
> > Valley college. Cool ....And of course we ..er I needed as much time as
> > possible tweaking the "Sytem"...
> > Got there it was snowing like Heck up in Stevens pass.. 4000 Ft mountain
> > passes... not a real good mile per Gallon number... and while
> Regening down
> > the East slopes... Not enough room to store many Kwhr of power... 5
> amphrs
> > of NiMH is NOT a really big storage bank... Hummm new Mode of
> charger...suck
> > from NiMH and recharge the PbLa... Need more contactors... But ...
> not while
> > under way.
> > First thing is to get the Pb recharged.. OK that's what we are
> going to
> > us the DeltaQ for, It's installed, and Well it gets to do grid work
> while
> > the PFC does the big current chores that it is buildt for.
> > We can't get more than about 2 amps into the pack..OK we be
> charged!......or
> > so we thought...
> >
> > We back out into the Windy sunny East slope spring Day, Wow this
> place
> > is Stunningly beautifull. Where's the wind farm when you need it? Better
> > than that.. The Chelan county PUD has 4 Hydro plants , 2 on the main
> > Columbia River.. the high drop from Lake Chelan to the River... 100
> of ft
> > of drop...And one other that is pretty amazing on the upper end of
> the lake
> > serving..Stehikin. And well it's been a heavy snow year.. and they just
> > can't sell all they can make... in fact they have water going over
> the tops
> > of dams.. and the main big feed from the pac NW to California is at
> > capacity... They have Get this residentail goes for 2.8 Cents a
> Kwhr, and
> > comercial is at 1.8 cents. Can you say a EVers Dream!! That a half
> cent
> > for a mile in my EVs. Drooooool!!!
> >
> > We found a empty parking lot and started doing laps... mile one...
> no ICE.
> > Mile two No ice... had to turn down the volts.. and Maxed out the PFC30s
> > currrent... Mile 3... charger actually starts to ramp the fans up...
> Mile 4
> > the charger is clearly giving us more range... Fans are getting to full
> > power.... Mile 5.. SNAP!.. opened the 30 amp breaker again... with a
> 36 amp
> > draw. Reset breaker... turned PFC down to about %75... As the SOC
> rises...
> > we turn the PFC current to 0... as the SOC Fall below about 55% we
> repower
> > up the PFC.... Mile 6.... time to go home....or back to the College
> service
> > shop.
> >
> > Got 6.4 miles... the ICE never rotated. The NiMH is fully charged
> when we
> > get back.. the charger has spooled down...No errors... Wow we just added
> > about trippled the total EV only range a Prius has.
> > Not bad for run #2, and about 24 hours of my time.
> >
> > We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK... but we don't
> want to
> > upset the carfull settings on the PFC30. This becomes the first
> mistake of
> > the day. We munch donuts and Coke.... Thanks guys!
> > The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts. The
> crowd shows
> > up for the presentation... the DQ still is taking it's bloddy
> time.... It
> > just won't make solid big amps, it gets hot.... and won't drive the lead
> > over 240 volts... I suspect the "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's
> set to
> > the wrong voltage... and there are other issues... Simple fact it
> can't fill
> > our pack, and in fact has not added more than about 500 watthours to the
> > pack since I did the last full power PFC30 backed charge over aday
> ago at
> > this point. The best guess is we traveled about 10 mile on EV only
> mode on
> > a single charge to the PbLa pack.. or something like 200 watt hours per
> > mile..
> > Clearly If I had wired the PFC to the lead pack and used the
> grid, we
> > would have gotten a full pack in about 90 minutes. Even off of
> 120VAC at 15
> > amps. Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs, No amps, No volts no SOC...not
> meteres
> > what so ever.. just a pair of DVMs and a lot of poking. NO BMS and no
> > meters. And they were on there 2 cycle in thier life... We could
> have had
> > much metter insturmentation. but... It worked any way...
> >
> > So the PFC charge support from Grid to Add a pack works, The PFC
> from add a
> > pack to to Hybrid pack works... and Well What can I say??? It can be
> done
> > and has been done.
> >
> > Now I need to add contactors to allow for auto switching from
> Grid to
> > add on pack, some logic to reprogram the charger's setpoint from one
> > chemistry to the other... and maybe ports so a custom Can view or
> rewrite of
> > the Toyota control can stear the charger... and some fuses and
> fans.. and
> > the one PFC series charger can do all 3 modes of power processing.
> >
> > What I thought was a daunting computer hashing and Spoofing effort has
> > become a interesting way to make a Stock PFC30 charger make it all
> happen.
> > Clearly this kind of Plug In Hybrid system can be used on just about any
> > Hybrid, with a wildly varying Source pack.. the charger can boost of
> Buck
> > DC... You could have a 96 volt pack of floodeds charing a 360 volt
> pack of
> > Lions... Or a 360 volt pack of Lions charging a 218 volt pack of
> NiMH. It
> > doesn't really matter. Just adjust the target voltage right.. and
> you are
> > off.
> >
> > Enough for now...I intend to have a Kit of everything you need including
> > Battery pack and mounting hardware, Cables and relays available for
> this.
> > The first effort will use Quality Hawker PbLa Batteries as the addon
> pack,
> > and it will be taylored to the Prius... for now.
> >
> > I am Lusting over a Ford Escape Hybrid.. and the large Back trunk
> area and
> > heavy duty SUV springs that can hold a really significant pack.
> AnyBody want
> > to hand me a Escape Hybrid??? I got to drive Randy Brooks new one, I
> am in
> > Lust.!!! 500 lbs of Lion back there??? Ev all the way to
> Wenatchee...from
> > Seattle. Got room for Skiis and a couple Dozzen PFC cases can be
> kept out
> > of the rain on the commute from Portland to Seattle.
> >
> > Dizzy... Madman
> > Need sleep... Need to ship those Green boxes......
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That Sir is my intention!!
Keep in mind I have just started.. Bumps and Grinds if the real world are
going to happen.
I will certainly do my best!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich,
>
> I am currently investigating EDrive Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) for
> the Prius. It is suposed to have a spoofing unit this summer
> for $10k-$12K. The downer on this one is that as far as I have
> heard, they will only have one certified installed who works
> out of Southern California.
>
> However, if you can figure out how to do it like you just
> described and I can get a kit out here in Chicago with the
> option to purchase my own Hawkers or Lions and integrate them
> around a pfc20/pfc30...you've got my attention sir...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joel
>
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Sorry Rod, But I am Hijacking this thread to the SEVA list and to the
Main
> > EVlist.
> > Madman
> >
> > Warning... no time to spell check... phone ringing...
> >
> > In the last couple of Days like since Sunday... I have had my hands in
> > Ryan's Pirus pretty deeply.
> >
> > First I will be up in PT for sure with Ryan... I just did about 250
miles in
> > it, In a Ride over to Wenatchee and back. So.. I am getting some hands
on
> > time with the PiPrius.
> >
> > First the Calcars system, One didn't work as it came back from
California...
> > And actualy ate it self for dinner about last Wensday. The contactors
> > actaully left the running System totally disconnected from both packs
for a
> > Brief instant.. and things smoked and failed. Ryan got it running again
as a
> > normal Prius after pulling some fuses and resetting suff. Lucky him.
> >
> > About that time I was asked if we could try my idea of using a PFC30
> > charger as a buffer DC/DC converter to pull from the Add a Pack and then
> > charge the Prius's NiMH pack, Being very carfull to not over voltage the
> > Spendy NiMH. OK .. that's just what my chargers do very well. They have
a
> > pretty solid and adjustable voltage regulation setting. We just needed
to
> > find the Right voltage and current to NOT hurt Mr. Toyota Nice Idea...
> > wonder if it works. Sunday I found Ryan and his 100 mpg Prius in my
shop...
> > Lets find out shall we?? OK..er... I hope I don't hurt What I can't fix.
> > I dicharged the 20 amphour at 228 volt pack of B&B AGMs, I got 2700
> > watt hours on the first pass. And recharged them with a PFC30 to 280
volts.
> > (14.73 volts) They took power very well, and we did not let them taper
below
> > about 5 amps... they are new and show "Growth" at the end of a charge
cycle
> > by not tapering off fast. They just take it and take it..... I lost
> > patientece.. and we went to the next step.
> > I fed the PFC30 from the PbLa pack.. without any issues... Ok folks
> > that't the first time I have officially run one of my chargers off of
DC,
> > and Well it all worked. I even manged to open the AC rated breaker on
218
> > voltd DC.. that makes a Loud POP, with Blue stuff leaking out of the
breaker
> > case... 36 DC feed amp IS more than a 30 amp Beaker can stand for about
5
> > minutes... abit of excitment.. No damage... Lots'O pucker factor.. This
> > output was stuffed in my loadbank with our 15kw Windloader. OK.. all
works
> > as planned on the test bench. Now out to the Pirius. First we dailed in
the
> > best guess voltage the Prius's NiMH pack would want to see as the output
> > limit on the PFC charger. We picked 242 from watching the CAN buss
Scanner
> > that Ryan has installed on the Prius.
> > We ripped oout all the "other" circuits and spoofing controls and
> > contactors and anything that waws not stock Toyota. All the Calcars
stuff
> > that was in the Prius from the Make magazine install was taken out. We
left
> > the prototype DeltaQ charger in and the Battery pack of course. So ..
there
> > is LOTS Of room behind the pack that was stuffed full of circuit boards
and
> > contactors and such.
> >
> > And we simply wired the output of the PFC30 to the NiMH pack. and
wired
> > the AC input of the PFC30 to the 218 volt Lead acid add on pack....and
> > flipped the breaker on the charger.
> > All fired up, Then we dailed in some amps while watching the volts
display
> > on the Can View that is being piped to the Main Prius display screen.
> > The volts came up, the SOC came up... Just as planned... Then we took a
> > ride....
> > It was that simple...
> > Prius Plug in Hybrid... Working... After a LOT of fear and testing.. it
> > really was that simple.
> >
> > The tuning part of getting the charge computer to keep the ICE engine
off,
> > that took a little more tweaking. We adjusted the charge voltage down to
> > about 234, and the current up to max. and it worked better, But the SOC
> > would drift up too far and the engine would kick on to drop the pack
back
> > down, thinking it had over charged the NiMH, Then we would turn off the
> > charger, and the SOC would drift dwon until the ICE came on to restore
the
> > pack. Well OK this is what you would exxpect for about 10 minutes of
> > practice.... We upped the voltage to 237, and used the Accelerator
harder
> > when the SOC drifted up too much, and clearly we needed more Learning
time.
> > This ended at about 10:30 PM Sunday.
> > Day one.. success... no smoke, and we can really charge the NiMH from
the
> > PbLA... and keep it all under control.
> >
> > Day two.. I am on the 7:10 am Ferry heading to Steve Lough's place to
hook
> > up with Ryan... and his trusty PFC30 enhanced Prius. We are going to
> > Wenatchee, Wa on the other side of the Cascades to give a Ride and PiP
Show
> > for the Chelan county Dept of comerce and the Wenatche PUD, at the
Wenatche
> > Valley college. Cool ....And of course we ..er I needed as much time as
> > possible tweaking the "Sytem"...
> > Got there it was snowing like Heck up in Stevens pass.. 4000 Ft mountain
> > passes... not a real good mile per Gallon number... and while Regening
down
> > the East slopes... Not enough room to store many Kwhr of power... 5
amphrs
> > of NiMH is NOT a really big storage bank... Hummm new Mode of
charger...suck
> > from NiMH and recharge the PbLa... Need more contactors... But ... not
while
> > under way.
> > First thing is to get the Pb recharged.. OK that's what we are going
to
> > us the DeltaQ for, It's installed, and Well it gets to do grid work
while
> > the PFC does the big current chores that it is buildt for.
> > We can't get more than about 2 amps into the pack..OK we be
charged!......or
> > so we thought...
> >
> > We back out into the Windy sunny East slope spring Day, Wow this
place
> > is Stunningly beautifull. Where's the wind farm when you need it? Better
> > than that.. The Chelan county PUD has 4 Hydro plants , 2 on the main
> > Columbia River.. the high drop from Lake Chelan to the River... 100 of
ft
> > of drop...And one other that is pretty amazing on the upper end of the
lake
> > serving..Stehikin. And well it's been a heavy snow year.. and they just
> > can't sell all they can make... in fact they have water going over the
tops
> > of dams.. and the main big feed from the pac NW to California is at
> > capacity... They have Get this residentail goes for 2.8 Cents a Kwhr,
and
> > comercial is at 1.8 cents. Can you say a EVers Dream!! That a half
cent
> > for a mile in my EVs. Drooooool!!!
> >
> > We found a empty parking lot and started doing laps... mile one... no
ICE.
> > Mile two No ice... had to turn down the volts.. and Maxed out the PFC30s
> > currrent... Mile 3... charger actually starts to ramp the fans up...
Mile 4
> > the charger is clearly giving us more range... Fans are getting to full
> > power.... Mile 5.. SNAP!.. opened the 30 amp breaker again... with a 36
amp
> > draw. Reset breaker... turned PFC down to about %75... As the SOC
rises...
> > we turn the PFC current to 0... as the SOC Fall below about 55% we
repower
> > up the PFC.... Mile 6.... time to go home....or back to the College
service
> > shop.
> >
> > Got 6.4 miles... the ICE never rotated. The NiMH is fully charged when
we
> > get back.. the charger has spooled down...No errors... Wow we just added
> > about trippled the total EV only range a Prius has.
> > Not bad for run #2, and about 24 hours of my time.
> >
> > We plug in the DeltaQ. It makes bout 800 watts.. OK... but we don't want
to
> > upset the carfull settings on the PFC30. This becomes the first mistake
of
> > the day. We munch donuts and Coke.... Thanks guys!
> > The DQ gets hot.. we scrounge a fan.. still only 1100 watts. The crowd
shows
> > up for the presentation... the DQ still is taking it's bloddy time....
It
> > just won't make solid big amps, it gets hot.... and won't drive the lead
> > over 240 volts... I suspect the "Engineering Unit ONLY" means it's set
to
> > the wrong voltage... and there are other issues... Simple fact it can't
fill
> > our pack, and in fact has not added more than about 500 watthours to the
> > pack since I did the last full power PFC30 backed charge over aday ago
at
> > this point. The best guess is we traveled about 10 mile on EV only mode
on
> > a single charge to the PbLa pack.. or something like 200 watt hours per
> > mile..
> > Clearly If I had wired the PFC to the lead pack and used the grid,
we
> > would have gotten a full pack in about 90 minutes. Even off of 120VAC at
15
> > amps. Also.. the Pb pack had no Regs, No amps, No volts no SOC...not
meteres
> > what so ever.. just a pair of DVMs and a lot of poking. NO BMS and no
> > meters. And they were on there 2 cycle in thier life... We could have
had
> > much metter insturmentation. but... It worked any way...
> >
> > So the PFC charge support from Grid to Add a pack works, The PFC from
add a
> > pack to to Hybrid pack works... and Well What can I say??? It can be
done
> > and has been done.
> >
> > Now I need to add contactors to allow for auto switching from Grid
to
> > add on pack, some logic to reprogram the charger's setpoint from one
> > chemistry to the other... and maybe ports so a custom Can view or
rewrite of
> > the Toyota control can stear the charger... and some fuses and fans..
and
> > the one PFC series charger can do all 3 modes of power processing.
> >
> > What I thought was a daunting computer hashing and Spoofing effort has
> > become a interesting way to make a Stock PFC30 charger make it all
happen.
> > Clearly this kind of Plug In Hybrid system can be used on just about any
> > Hybrid, with a wildly varying Source pack.. the charger can boost of
Buck
> > DC... You could have a 96 volt pack of floodeds charing a 360 volt pack
of
> > Lions... Or a 360 volt pack of Lions charging a 218 volt pack of NiMH.
It
> > doesn't really matter. Just adjust the target voltage right.. and you
are
> > off.
> >
> > Enough for now...I intend to have a Kit of everything you need including
> > Battery pack and mounting hardware, Cables and relays available for
this.
> > The first effort will use Quality Hawker PbLa Batteries as the addon
pack,
> > and it will be taylored to the Prius... for now.
> >
> > I am Lusting over a Ford Escape Hybrid.. and the large Back trunk area
and
> > heavy duty SUV springs that can hold a really significant pack. AnyBody
want
> > to hand me a Escape Hybrid??? I got to drive Randy Brooks new one, I am
in
> > Lust.!!! 500 lbs of Lion back there??? Ev all the way to
Wenatchee...from
> > Seattle. Got room for Skiis and a couple Dozzen PFC cases can be kept
out
> > of the rain on the commute from Portland to Seattle.
> >
> > Dizzy... Madman
> > Need sleep... Need to ship those Green boxes......
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
