EV Digest 5474
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Tour de Sol Weather Conditions
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Tour De Sol
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) TdS Report #10: Team Profile: Vogelbilt
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) TdS Report #11: Photos - Vogelbilt
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Tour De Sol
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tour de Sol Weather Conditions
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Wanted -- LPI (large paddle inductive) charger on-board port &
on-board computer
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) TdS Report #12: Greasecar
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) TdS Report #13: Photos - Greasecar
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: I need advice/ Making a GEM go farther and faster.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Check this out: Run Your Car On Water!!! (SM-Size)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I need advice/ Making a GEM go farther and faster.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) InnoVan - EV company for sale
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Plasmaboy racing submitted to digg.com
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) TdS Report #14: Interview: Nancy Hazard, Director of the Tour de Sol
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
If you're contemplating almost $11k for a battery, I have two comments for
you.
One: You should be looking at Saft STM-100MRE nicads. Price will be in the
same neighborhood, capacity will be 18kWh, and cycle life at 80% DOD should
exceed 2000 cycles. You also won't have almost 5,000 connections to make
(which could take half the rest of your life to complete and debug ;-).
Two: Charging an $11,000 battery - no matter what type - with a dumb $100
charger is like buying a Porsche Boxster and parking it unlocked in a rough
neighborhood with the keys in the ignition.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I planned on attending Tour de Sol tomorrow, Saturday, 5/13
Weather conditions appear less than ideal for this weekend's activities. Any
idea how this will alter these activities?
Thanks
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.spaces.msn.com/dbd3
I own a 1980 Jet Electravan & a 1983 Bradley GT Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those of us not able to attend... presumably someone on here has
a camcorder and could upload some snippets to YouTube or something
similar for us all to enjoy?
Regards
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #10: Team Profile: Vogelbilt
Carl Vogel returns to the Tour de Sol, both as a participant and a sponsor.
His company provides biodiesel to the Tour, both for participants and the
diesel generator used to charge the electric and plugin-hybrid cars. His
company in in West Babylon, New York. "We are going to have the first
renewable fueling station on Long Island, with biodiesel, biodiesel blends,
ethanol and CNG, branded as a Vogelbilt station."
His big entry in the Tour is #12, a stock Ford F-250 6 liter diesel that has
only seen biodiesel, and a little bit of kerosene during the winter, in its
81,000 miles. It was here at the Tour in 2004, when it was brand new, and
again in 2005.
His little entry is the Vogelbilt electric motor cycle, which has also been
here before. "It was featured on Discovery Science recently, as part of the
CoolFuel Roadtrip series. (It's earlier title was Eco-treker.) They had the
bike for about a year. The started in Wisconsin, and visited Florida, New
York, Miami and California. It was one of their primary vehicles." The whole
idea was to go around and try all sorts of cool transportation. But the
motorcycle was that vehicle somehow got involved.
A bike story. "Marty thought they were finished with the bike and was playing
around with it, smoking the rear tire. It grabbed the ground and snapped the
belt. Shaun was upset because he needed the bike for the last stop to finish
the show, so they had to scramble to find the belt. It's two teeth shorter
than a standard Harley belt, so you really have to look for it. The hunt for
the belt became part of the show."
What's next? The biodiesel business keeps Carl busy. "We have BioHeat for
home heating, and making the fueling station happen. And then a biodiesel
motorcycle. The TDI-like engines on a motorcycle would still be a low-emission
engine with lots of power. And sound!" And if you like, smell like french
fries.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #11: Photos - Vogelbilt
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_004.html
Vogelbilt
Carl's collection of Tour de Sol vehicles.
The F-250 has been on a biodiesel diet since it was purchased.
Now this sounds like _I_ think a motorcycle should sound ...
and looks like _I_ think a motorcycle should look.
Carl always brings his Elec-Trak lawn tractor to the Tour de Sol,
but we haven't found a category to enter it in.
It would probably win by default.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it doesn't rain too hard....I plan on attending and will have my
camcorder and digital camera and will make available anything I have
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: Tour De Sol
> For those of us not able to attend... presumably someone on here has
> a camcorder and could upload some snippets to YouTube or something
> similar for us all to enjoy?
>
> Regards
>
> Nikki
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
I called the Museum yesterday and was told the event would take place
rain or shine.
http://www.saratogaautomuseum.com/
-Dave
http://megawattmotorworks.com
On May 12, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Don B. Davidson III wrote:
I planned on attending Tour de Sol tomorrow, Saturday, 5/13
Weather conditions appear less than ideal for this weekend's
activities. Any idea how this will alter these activities?
Thanks
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.spaces.msn.com/dbd3
I own a 1980 Jet Electravan & a 1983 Bradley GT Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i have one ive just removed from my s10..... i wasnt going to put it back in,
there are no chargers anywhere in my area for me to use it and i like having
the easier access to my batteries..... but i have one question for everyone,
when i removed the charger, there was a red connector that seems to be left
over.... am i correct in assuming that i should splice the two wires together
to complete the connection from my front battery pack??? i havent driven the
car that much, but i believe im only operating on the rear battery pack right
now... is anyone familiar with this???
as far as the charger goes, as soon as i know ive not done anything to my
system by removing it, id be happy to sell it for a reasonable offer......
when replying to this email, please include my regular email ([EMAIL
PROTECTED]) so i dont miss the response.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "GM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Does anyone know what these might be available?
>
>
>
> I am looking to buy some Large Paddle Inductive (LPI) charger parts.
>
>
>
> I am interested in the "on-board" side LPI parts including the 1) paddle
> receptacle port & 2) on-board side of the charger controller.
>
>
>
> These parts were used several cars including the mid-year Rav4evs, Chevy
> S-10Es and the EV-1s.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
>
>
> Steve
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #12: Greasecar
Cosimo Ferrante is standing next to this _tiny_ lime-green and white car,
wearing a teeshirt that declares MadHouseMinis.com. What are we looking at?
"This is a 1980 Austin Mini Clubman, made in the United Kingdom. In about 1970
they facelifted the Mini Cooper, and offered the round-nosed Cooper or the
flat-nosed Clubman. The Clubman was a popular style in Australia and New
Zealand, but it wasn't in Europe or the US."
But this isn't an original. It has been modified to make it into a Greasecar,
that can run on waste vegetable oil. What had to be done? "We lengthened
lower section of the front nose to fit this Peugeot 1.5 liter diesel engine
into it. That engine was popular in French and UK cars in the 1980s, but never
intended for this body."
Cosimo did the car modification to make it ready for the Greasecar kit. In the
rear boot there are two tanks. A welded aluminum tank for the vegetable oil
has an internal heater and sleeved fuel lines to keep the vegetable oil fluid,
and the original steel tank carries the diesel or biodiesel needed when
starting and stopping the car. Each tank has its own external filler cap,
labeled "Vegetable Oil Only" or "Diesel Oil Only".
Justin Craven is founder, owner and operator of Greasecar Vegetable Fuel
Systems LLC in Easthampton, MA, which offers a kit to convert a conventional
diesel vehicle to run on vegetable oil. That is what was done to this car.
Next to the diesel engine is a machined block with steel jacketed fuel hoses
going into and out of it. When you start the car, the diesel tank is connected
to the engine, through this block, by both source and return fuel lines. Once
the engine is warm and the vegetable fuel is warm enough to flow, the system
switches over to vegetable fuel by connecting the source and return lines to
the vegetable oil tank. Finally, before shutting off the engine, the vegetable
fuel is "purged" by running diesel fuel into the engine but leaving the
vegetable return line connected. Thus the diesel fuel displaces the vegetable
oil, preparing the engine for its next cold start.
Justin started working with this technology in 1998. "We have been in business
since the beginning of 2001. It was a slow start, but now with fuel prices so
high people are looking for alternatives and small independent companies like
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems offer options that the larger manufacturers
don't. Right now we are averaging 20 sales a day. Each kit is a full
secondary fuel system: tank, filter, all the valves, plumbing and wiring;
everything you need for the vehicle you are doing. The prices start at $795
for most passenger vehicles and up towards $2000 for the larger pickup trucks.
We have had people with limited automotive knowledge do the conversion, but it
is a bit of a project, so it is not for everyone. But we also have mechanics
in different parts of the country who can do the installation for you. They
are listed on the website.
http://GreaseCar.com
"The newer Volkswagen TDI models are the simplest kits to install, with the
most documentation and vehicle-specific parts. That and the Mercedes are very
popular."
Oh. And the Greasecar Mini is still set up as a British right-hand drive.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #13: Photos - Greasecar
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_005.html
Greasecar
Driving on used vegetable oil takes a waste product and turns it into a fuel
when the car uses the Greasecar conversion kit.
This restored Mini Clubman does not look 26 years old.
text for this photo
text for this photo
If it wasn't for the signage, you might not notice that this car has both a
left and right fuel cap.
(All the Tour de Sol entrants have to demonstrate safe handling
characteristics,
hence this zig-zag-through-the-cones test.
You kissed one! But it is still in the circle, so you're OK.)
This Mercedes Diesel uses essentially the same Greascar fuel system as the
Mini.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is it about these Bridgestones that would make such a difference in
both range & speed?
The "magic" of low rolling resistance tires & since they are bigger in
diameter you are effectively changing the gear ratio for higher speed and
suprisingly better hill climbing. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problems with Nicads like the Sanyos, is you cannot charge them
with a badboy. They have to be peak detected and thermally detected.
If you don't then they will easily become exothermic. Meaning you
cannot stop them from overheating, venting, and dieing. I've seen it
happen dozens of times.
I rebuild nimh/nicad packs for my customers. Everyone that tried to
charge nicads in cylindrical form factor with anything other than the
right charger, smokes the cells no matter how closely they watch ove r
them, including me.
The only nicad you can treat like a lead acid battery are the flooded
types.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hmmm.. more flip flopping... :)
>
> Need 20 miles non-freeway on Jetta conversion with Warp 9. 250 times
> per year. Overnight (14 hours) charging time. AGM cost per mile too
> high. Don't want flooded mess and slow car. Plus hate the idea of
> having to rip it all apart every 19 months and the hassle of obtaining
> the new batteries and recycling the old.
>
> So...
>
> The AGMs:
>
> Figure a safe max motor voltage at 1000 A would be about 160 V and
> accounting for sag, and sizing so 20 miles is 40% DOD when new (240
> WH/mile):
> 20 Deka 9A31 for 240 V, about $150 each or $3000 total after factoring
> in mail order shipping or local taxes/truck rental
> Real world capacity when new and in ev, about 60 AH, or 14.4 KWH. At
> 400 cycles, 30 AH, or 7.2 KWH
> 1470 lbs including 100 lbs for mounting. Expected range in Jetta,
> about 60 miles to 100% and 20 miles to 33% DOD when new, and 20 miles
> at 66% DOD at 400 cycles. 1000 A capable when new (estimated sag at 90
> F to 8 V per battery). Somewhat less max current halfway through the
> life.
>
> Needs PFC plus regs with external loads and fans, about $3100. Or
> homebuilt 20 x Meanwell 500 watt multicharger $130 + $30
> microcontroller doodads, about $3200
> Multicharger will be temperature compensated per battery and 400
> cycles might be possible. PFC + regs with no temp compensation, maybe
> 300 cycles. Halfway through the cycle life, performance drops will be
> noticed.
>
> Needs 50 A 240 VAC circuit to handle initial charging load with
> multicharger or 30 A 240 VAC for PFC. $1000
>
> Battery rails. Haven't priced aluminum lately, so guessing $200.
>
> Jetta suspension, tires, aluminum wheels, brakes upgrades to handle
> weight, maybe $3000.
>
> 1000 hours labor.
>
> So best case that's $3000 + $3200 + $1000 +200 + 3000 = $10400,
> recurring costs for batteries every 19 months $3000 + 12 hours to
> procure and change out.
> Cost per mile for AGMs: $3000 / 20 miles x 400 cycles = $0.375
> Cost per mile if retiring battery system and/or car in 10 years (to
> compare with one time build cost of Sanyos)(cost per mile would in
> reality be worse because of inflation)(6 packs total is close enough):
> ($7400 + 6 x $3000)/ 6 x 20 x 400 cycles = $0.52
>
>
> The Sanyos:
>
> Figure a safe max motor voltage at 1000 A would be about 160 V and
> accounting for sag, and sizing so 20 miles is 40% DOD when new (210
> WH/mile):
> 2400 Sanyo KR-4400D nicads (3.8 mohm each) in 16 150 cell parallel
> strings for 180 V (Sanyos are much stiffer than Dekas), including
> shipping, about $4.5 x 2400 = $10800
> Real world capacity when new and in ev, about 70.4 AH, 12.6 KWH. At
> 2500 cycles, 35.2 AH, or 6.3 KWH
> 916 lbs including 150 lbs for boxes and mounting. Expected range in
> Jetta, about 60 miles to 100% (it's lighter than AGM, so better
> KWH/mile) and 20 miles to 33% DOD when new, and 20 miles at 66% DOD at
> 2500 cycles. 1000 A capable new. When old, would expect less sag than
> old AGMs.
>
> These two documents suggest 2500 cycles would be reasonable with 33%
> DOD when new using Sanyos, especially the satellite doc which
> specifically mentions the Sanyo KR-4400D getting 2100 to 3700 cycles
> at 40% DOD (I presume 40% is when new). And my experience with Sanyos
> (25 years RC electric planes) also suggests the figures are real:
> http://aria.seas.wustl.edu/SSC01/papers/5-7.pdf
>
http://www.isco.com/WebProductFiles/Applications/201/Nicad_vs_LeadAcidBatteries_TechBulletin.pdf
>
> Badboy 240 VAC overnight charger- bridge rectifier + 16 fan cooled 50
> to 100 watt resistors (need to determine experimentally) to drop the
> 340 V peak voltage and be a quasi-constant current source. 120 Hz
> ripple is ok on nicads right? If so no filter caps, better power
> factor without caps too. Connectors, box, and stuff. $100. Could also
> be done with 120 VAC 20 A circuit and a voltage doubler, though power
> factor would suffer because of the caps.
>
> No regs needed. Cells charged at 440 mA are self equalizing.
>
> No new 240 VAC circuit needed. Additional outlet on dryer circuit ok.
> $100.
>
> Because of the lower weight, the only body upgrade that would be
> needed would be cargo springs in the rear. $300
>
> 16 150 A 300 V diodes (under normal operation, slow recovery should be
> ok, but I can envision a scenario where it would blow, so fast
> recovery will be used, probably paralleling cheaper 50 A matched
> devices) to join the strings outputs safely with some margin. 16 1 A
> 300 V diodes to keep current out of the badboy resistors during
> dischaged, $100. Also with this, each string will go through its own
> cables terminated at a single point near the speed control. The gauge
> will be chosen such that the drops are equal from each string to the
> termination points, regardless of the distance. This should hopefully
> help balance out the current usage from each string at high amp draws.
> Ideally one would also want matched cells, but one has to be
> realistic...
>
> Assembly and cooling will need careful thought. I'm thinking 3 boxes,
> two smaller ones up front, a larger one in the trunk. Each box would
> have slotted sides to hold removable "cards" of batteries, each card
> one string, like 5 rows of 30 cells layed out flat side by side on a
> 16 x 39 inch panel. I'm thinking 1/8 inch fiberglass panels with a few
> spacers in between glued to the cells would be sufficiently strong to
> hold 48 lbs per. The box long sides could be 1/4 inch fiberglass, and
> the slottled sides, doubled up and epoxied and screwed such that the
> slots are 1/4 inch deep and in between sections 1/2 inch thick.
> Aluminum rails could attach the 1/2 thick sections to the car frame,
> and another rail underneath the middle of the horizontal front box to
> prevent sag. Silicone rubber to hold the cells together and on the
> panels, and so bad ones could be cut out without too much trouble.
> Interconnects would be 1/16 inch thick x 3/8 inch copper straps and
> would have less than a volt drop over 150 cells at 62 A. One box would
> sit vertically behind the grill and hold 3 cards, and another would be
> horizontal over the motor and transmission, holding 5 cards. In the
> trunk would be a box holding 8 cards. On the narrow top or back side
> of the front boxes would be a bunch of 120 MM muffin fans, like 6 on
> each, and the trunk box would have an outside inlet and centrifugal
> blower to exhaust warm air to the outside. I'll have them temperature
> controlled, so in the winter would be off or slow (nicads can vent
> during overcharge if they're too cold). And I'll have a temp monitor
> to stop the charging in case of fan failure or loss of fan power. $500
>
> Question: Where does one buy 4 x 8 foot fiberglass panels in 1/8th and
> 1/4 inch thickness? What different grades are available?
>
> More on the interconnects: They would have to be soldered copper
> strips to get 62 A without too much drop and heat. I've soldered big
> cells before with the following method: 75 watt 1/2 inch Weller chisel
> iron, sand oxides off the button top and a small patch on the bottom
> with the Dremel, liquid rosin flux on the sanded areas and
> interconnect, tinning both, doing it quickly with the minimum amount
> of heat on the cell, fluxing again, then quickly sweating. I usually
> create a jig to hold everything in place during assembly. One question
> I've never found the answer to is, does quick minimal heat soldering
> significantly damage the cells? With little AA cells, it's not hard to
> cook the plastic surround on the top, but the big cells use button
> tops, and seem much harder to cook.
>
> I've seen braid used as interconnects. The idea being that solid is
> too rigid and damages the cells during heating/cooling expansion and
> vibration. I've never experienced any issues using solid, and braid
> wicks solder, adding weight and requiring more solder be used, so I'm
> not sure about that idea.
>
> To help monitor health and isolate trouble I'll make a
> microcontroller/display doodad to monitor the voltages of each string
> during charge, and a shunt in each string during discharge to monitor
> current from each string. If voltage on one string is higher during
> charge and current lower on discharge, that string would likely have a
> high resistance cell needing replacement. Then I'd have to pull the
> string and measure each cell with a load. PIA but Sanyos are pretty
> tough so hopefully wouldn't be too often. $100
>
> 400 hours labor.
>
> Performance will be better at 550 lbs lighter.
>
> So that's $10800 + $100 + $100 + $300 + $100 + $500 + $100 = $12000,
> recurring costs every 10 years $10800 + 80 hours to procure and change
> out. And recurring is a non-issue as I expect to be using a new
> battery technology when the time comes.
> Electric costs may be somewhat higher than AGM because of the wasteful
> badboy, but probably not enough to count.
> Cost per mile for Sanyos: $10800 / 20 miles x 2500 cycles = $0.216
> And cost per mile if you figure it's a one time build = $12000 / 20 x
> 2500 cycles = $0.24
>
> Saft flooded nicads I've considered but ruled out due to their low max
> current, higher initial costs, difficulty of obtaining, plus cooling,
> watering, and corrosion complexities, and real world cost per mile
> (2000 cycles at 40% DOD for $12000) being higher than the Sanyos. The
> low current is the real deal killer, as I've read posts here that 250
> A is about the safe long life max for the 100 AH batteries.
>
> BB600 flooded nicads would deliver the current, but PIA (Pain In the
> Ass) factor much higher because of watering (how do you water when you
> can't see the sides), corrosion, plus only the currently unobtainable
> surplus cells are affordable.
>
> So my initial cost is fairly close with AGMs or Sanyos. My cost per
> mile is lower with the Sanyos. Less conversion labor time with the
> Sanyos. The Sanyos + badboy would be a lot more idiot proof (Murphy
> says I screw up the design and my multicharger cooks the first AGM
> pack). Replacement PIA factor is lower with Sanyos even though the
> averaged labor time per mile would be about the same, because it's
> probably a one time build, as better batteries will hopefully be
> available by the time these wear out.
>
> Hmmmm.. despite the obvious tedium and complexity of assembling 2400
> cells, I like the Sanyo idea better. It'll be like a RC model car,
> only bigger and without the remote. :-P
>
> Comments and critique appreciated (like you're crazy!) :)
>
> Brad Baylor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Newbie Dave. Please post this BS on the appropriate sites. The lists
you posted to deal in working electric & hybrid vehicles. If you still feel
the need to post such items please put OT in front of the subject(Off Topic)
Unless you drive one and can drive me 500 miles in one direction I can't
take it seriously. I do however get a good laugh out of such items once in
a while and have been fooled by them myself. I know you mean well.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Fw: Check this out: Run Your Car On Water!!! (SM-Size)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They use a silica compound that lowers the rolling resistance. The
most noticeable thing is they also roll very quietly compared to most
other radials. My truck rolls alot easier with LRR tires. Even putting
it in neutral in the garage it rolls out to the driveway very quickly.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What is it about these Bridgestones that would make such a
difference in
> both range & speed?
>
>
>
> >From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >CC: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: I need advice/ Making a GEM go farther and faster. Date:
Wed, 10
> >May 2006 10:08:47 -0700
> >
> >It might be possible to shoehorn in 12 US batteries. They make
about 5
> >different versions of the 6v battery with 5 different weights from 59
> >pounds to 70 pounds.. If you put on some B381 Bridgestones that
might also
> >make a difference. I suspect a very big jump in range with those
tires.
> >Adapters would be required. Just a couple of thoughts. You would
get a
> >huge jump with 6v batteries. The 12v batteries weigh around 500
pounds &
> >the 6v batteries weigh about 700 pounds and would probably double your
> >range. I'm sure you could find a way to fit in more batteries &
with the
> >combination of LRR tires it would go a bit faster and climb hills
better
> >which you would need for the added battery weight. Has anyone done
this?
> >The new GEM 6 passenger usese 9 8v batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:54 PM 5/11/2006, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
This is not an NEV. It is a car that goes 40 MPH. Lawrence Rhodes.....
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
And the difference from an NEV is????
An NEV is limited to 25mph & this vehicle qualifies as a motorcycle because
of the low weight and three wheels. LR.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/12/06, Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of this -
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11318033/Electric_Vehicle_Delivery_Van_NiMH_Battery_Powered/showimg.html
Very interesting. I enquired about it, and was given permission to
pass on the info here.
It's the successor of the German "Saxi" van, it has a glass-fibre
body, a NiMH battery pack, air-cooled AC controller and motor giving
top speed of 62mph (in 20 seconds) and range up to 93 miles.
Apparently the company is for sale. Their representative (the contact
on the alibaba site) sent me a memo about the company's assets and how
far along they are with the manufacturing setup and approvals. It
seems quite impressive, 3 prototypes have been produced and one is
available for viewing in NY.
If there's anyone reading who wants to buy an off the shelf EV
company, here's your chance - I hope it happens as it's about time
someone made a decent little EV with modern drive and batteries.
Usual disclaimers apply, I am in no way connected etc.
Summary of the memo is below:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Jefferies & Co. (www.jefferies.com) has been mandated to sell the
assets of the company
-Any reasonable bid (see balance sheet in attached document for book
asset value of assets although they are like new) will be considered
-Vehicle is 100% electric, but can easily be converted to hybrid
diesel / electric
-Designed for use in Europe or the UK -- narrow chassis
-Plugs into standard Euro socket to recharge, but it is modified
for UK / Hong Kong, US / China
-Uses Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, but can be modified to use
Lithium Ion or others
-Suppliers for all parts have been sourced from Europe, although Asian
alternatives can be used to lower cost
-Vehicle features solar-powered interior electronics, dent-free
exterior panels
-Mass production was to take place on Malta, but a key senior
manager fell ll, so mass production never kicked off; strong
relationships exist with Maltese government should manufacturing be
required there again
-German manufacturing has also been wound down, assets are
maintained in a warehouse in Saxony - can easily be transported via
container
-The goal is to sell the assets and intellectual property of the business
-Assets include three vehicle prototypes and a variety of
top-of-the-line equipment and components, IBM CATIA software designs
for the vehicle (plus other models) and the manufacturing process
-Manufacturing equipment is sufficient to produce 200 vehicles on
a regular cycle includes robotic assembly machines, painting machines,
etc.)
-Moulds for all parts are included
-Prototypes are certified in the EU and US for road travel
-Engineers who originally designed the vehicle and plant layout
(note that plant was never constructed) are still available -- in
Germany
We encourage you to test drive the vehicle. One is located here
outside of New York City. Management is eager to sell the assets, so
any reasonable bid will be considered.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may not be an NEV but a texbook definition but it is still a limited access
vehicle. You can't travel on highways or main roads or non neighborhood roads
where I live. In the two states I have lived in you'd have limited access
plates, in one state you would have a more serious issue since enclosed
motorcycles are not allowed to be registered.
Anywhere that I have lived it would be limited to the same roads that an NEV is
allowed to travel on except this vehicle wouldn't hold up traffic like an NEV
would. So for that hurray! Maybe they'll come out with a sport model that'll do
55 or 60 since they say it is capable of going faster at the cost of losing
range.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 02:54 PM 5/11/2006, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>This is not an NEV. It is a car that goes 40 MPH. Lawrence Rhodes.....
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> And the difference from an NEV is????
An NEV is limited to 25mph & this vehicle qualifies as a motorcycle because
of the low weight and three wheels. LR.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ted,
Seeing that we live close to each other what's the possibility of
getting together on the weekend to compare charging systems. I live in
Tenino.
Kickgas
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted C.
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
The person who owned the Porsche before me had a similar setup to what
your
talking about. The car had a bohn charger (Bad Boy Charger) in it. When
that
would get to the end of the charging cycle he would switch it over to an
single charger that would cycle though all the batteries using a relay
bank
he built for this purpose. Instead of LEDs like yours, he had a laptop
connected to a radio shack meter with an RS232 port. When the relays
would
cycle each battery it would take voltage measurements and log them on a
program he wrote. It worked pretty good for the most part. He told me he
over charged the pack a couple of times when something would go wrong
and
left it on the bad boy charger a little to long. So he removed the bohn
charger and relay bank/charger setup. Then installed two of the 4 bank
chargers. I got the car and complete it with the third 4 bank charger
and a
new battery pack. It is now "set it and forget it"
Ted,
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:45 AM
Subject: RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>I have taken a slightly different approach using a charger per battery.
> I have implemented a charger per battery in addition to the bulk
charger
> on my E FIERO.
> The bulk charger monitors each battery and shuts itself down when the
> pack is 90% recharged. The small switchers are on as long as the
vehicle
> is plugged in. The individual chargers are set to 13.8V and balance
the
> pack. Each charger is fused with a 250V rated fuse and has a LED
> indicator that shows when the battery is above 13.4V. This will
indicate
> if any charger has failed.
> The only potential problem is if a battery fails by going open under
> bulk charge then the charger connected to it will go poof, snap,
> crackle, & pop as it sees full pack voltage on its 12V output. So far
> the system has worked without a problem.
> I have left the individual chargers plugged in for over 24 hours.
> After 3-4 hours the total current being supplied to all 19 chargers is
> less than 1/2 amp. & all the batteries are within 5mv of each other.
>
> KICKGAS
>
> Pat Sweeney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:05 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>
> On 5/11/06, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The only thing that has concerned me about my setup is if for some
> reason I
>> get an open in my pack. I could get an voltage potential up 150volts+
> trying
>> to go though one of the chargers. I have been meaning to contact the
> maker
>> of the charger to find out what is the highest voltage the charger
> could see
>> on any one charger. With a high enough volt one could let the magic
> smoke
>> out that makes it work.
>
> If you get an open circuit cell while driving, you will have a reverse
> polarity potential across that charger. The charger should be
> protected against reverse polarity: sometimes just a diode across the
> output and a fuse in series. If it doesn't have this protection (or
> it's not sufficient to protect against the higher voltage and greater
> fault energy), you could add it externally.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John & all,
I just submitted Plasmaboy Racing to digg.com. If (big if) it gets to
the front page you could expect to see a lot of traffic. I caution you
because depending on your service agreement with your provider you
could hit your bandwidth limits.
I think White Zombie's just about the coolest thing on wheels and I
hope that the digg community gets as fired up about it as I do.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #14: Interview: Nancy Hazard, Director of the Tour de Sol
Nancy has found lots of things to be excited about this year.
"The return of the eVermont people is tremendously exciting to me, for a lot of
reasons. Not only are their continuing the research they have been doing for
years and years, but now they have some new vehicles. And the kinds of
vehicles they are working on are spectacular. The fact that they brought the
Evergreen, battery-electric vehicle with a much better battery than in previous
station cars, to the Tour is great. It brings us full circle from where we
started. They are taking delivery soon on a Prius running on hydrogen. And
they have ordered a plugin-hybrid Prius. I find the plugin-hybrids thrilling.
"We can increase fuel economy, shrinking the energy pie, by getting a high
percentage of the vehicles traveling in electric mode, at least in part."
Nancy also sees shrinking the energy pie as helping the biofuels, because they
can then be a more significant percentage of the whole, even with limited
production. And of course biofuels are recycling recent carbon-dioxide,
because the CO2 in exhaust can be taken up by growing plants to become the
biofuel on the next cycle.
"The Viking32 from Western Washington University is using biomethane. This is
the first year they have brought their own biomethane, created from landfills
and farm manure. Methane (CH4), molecule-for-molecule is 20 times as potent a
greenhouse gas as carbon dioxide (CO2). So by capturing methane, using it to
power a car and releasing carbon dioxide, you've greatly improved the
atmosphere over the case if the methane had been released.
"The vehicle from India is also exciting, for a number of reasons. They have
looked at the transportation needs in India and are trying to meet them. I
like that thinking, creating a vehicle that uses the least amount of energy
possible to fulfill that mission. Their one person gasoline / plugin electric
hybrid tries to address those needs.
"We have a number of one-person vehicles entered, including the around-town
vehicles. Optibike from Colorado and RunAbout Cycles from Massachusetts are
both emerging and getting into production. Optibike is going to attempt to
demonstrate the ability to go 100 miles in three hours. Now they have been
training in the Rocky Mountains, so they may see this area as flat, and our
lower elevation as oxygen rich, but averaging 33 miles per hour on regular
roads with stop lights and signs and traffic is amazing!
"The National Technical School for the Deaf is one of the eight colleges of the
Rochester Institute of Technology. Their 12 member team is bringing two
E-Bikes that they have designed themselves.
"Paul O'Brien, who was active with the Tour for many years is coming back.
Their team was the first to bring a fuel-cell powered vehicle (actually a
human-hybrid tricycle) to the Tour in 1998. They a bringing a GEM neighborhood
electric vehicle that the students are using for experimentation. And they
have partnered with the Vreeland Institute of Arts and Sciences to create an
educational trailer with every renewable technology on it you could imagine.
"We also have a GEM from a company called Solaqua which will be providing a
solar-powered public address system for our press event. The vehicle _is_ the
PA system.
"And, as an example of meeting the goal of less energy intensive transportation
by lowering vehicle weight, we have an exhibitor, Starfire, at the press event
that has a light-weight ceramic disc brake rotor that also claims superior
braking ability." They have a product for motorcycles, and are working on ones
for vans and trucks.
"The scoring of the Tour de Sol Competition has changed this year. In the past
the `green' parts of the scoring, for example fuel economy and climate change
emissions, were about 40% of the grade. Acceleration, hill climb, range,
handling, etc. were the rest. Now the divide 50-50. That makes the
competitions in the alternative fuel categories much more competitive."
Since it began, the Tour de Sol has sent the message that how we create and use
transportation has effect on our economy, our climate, and our quality of life.
Recent increases in gas prices and weather events have reinforced the message.
How has that affected the Tour?
"I feel we are at a point where we can talk about climate change emissions from
transportation. It has been on the front cover of Time magazine, the National
Geographic and Forbes and written and talked about extensively in the business
and general news communities. The question used to be was there a problem.
Now it is, `What do we do about it?' The Tour de Sol has always been solution
oriented. Transportation contributes one-third of the climate change
emissions; that's a fact." The things you see at the Tour can help change
that.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
