EV Digest 5515
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Bill Moore - EV World - NPR Radio SEARCH ?????
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Regen - as a 'brake'
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 12V Weight
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Source for NiFe batteries (Was: Question about NIMH patent(s))
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Almost Free EV!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Almost Free EV!Go for it!!!!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 5th EVer Chapter Conference Photos
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Taperlock dilemma
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Taperlock dilemma
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Taperlock dilemma
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Taperlock dilemma
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) TdS Report #44: The Detailed Results
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: AC vs. DC - hopefully ending (for now...)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: thick "primary" and "thinner wire more numerous" windings on a
rotor .. step up transformer effect ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Almost Free EV!
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 12V Weight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) re: my own outlet
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: AC vs. DC - hopefully ending (for now...)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Almost Free EV!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Bill Moore - EV World - NPR Radio SEARCH ?????
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Almost Free EV!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm listening right now to the archeive. Same as your url. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Bill Moore - EV World - NPR Radio SEARCH ?????
I think this may have been the story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5417997
... unfortunately NPR has pulled the page for the audio. Complain to
them, maybe they'll re-post it.
Ralph.
Steven Lough wrote:
Can the person, ( I think it was Rohds.. ) be more specific ??
Just did a search of the NPR using Bill Moore and EV World
Any Date any subject, and came up with.. zerrow...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Trust me, Peekay. When you drive an EV down a steep hill w/o regen, you wish
you had it.
It isn't just EVs. I almost wasn't born because Dad decided to take the
Chevy out of gear, coming down Observation Mountain. He couldn't get it back
into gear and the brakes were fading. They successfully made the turn at the
bottom of the hill, but a hubcap came off. Back then, these were heavy hunks
of metal. It went through a service station, between 2 people, and embedded
itself into the wall.
I've not had an EV w/ regen, but for downhill runs it's a plus... and
getting a small return to the batts is just a plus. <g>
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: Regen - as a 'brake'
> interesting to note that many ev'ers want regen capability
> for the 'braking' effect on the car .. feels good .. of course,
> it charges batteries too ..
>
> strange that the silent 'gliding' without any acceleration/deceleration
> cannot be an accepted feeling .. habbits, "normal" and other kind
> of natural human 'feelings' seem to be the reason
>
> ..peekay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got a hillybilly golfcart battery as a back up. It is only 7cm x20x20.
Pretty small and seems to be running the 12V quite nicely. It is float
charged by my Morven Dc Dc. Hope that helps.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 5:21 AM
Subject: 12V Weight
My conversion has gotten to the point of working on the 12V system, and I
was wondering about the battery weight vs. having no battery. On the face
of it, it seems like you'd get more energy out of a PbA than you would
burn
in the extra weight of carrying it around, so you'd be using less energy
from the traction pack and thus extend range somewhat. But a 50Ah cell at
12V would give around 600Wh, so maybe extend range by 3 miles for a car
getting 200Wh/mile. If you lost half of that by having to carry around
the
extra weight, then you'd get an extra 1.5 miles.
I guess that's why a lot of EVers use as small of a 12V cell as possible,
as
it comes in handy for running the emergency lights, etc., should something
happen to the traction pack.
I noticed that Peter Perkins was using a Super Capacitor in his electric
van
(http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/BMOD0350.html) and was
wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the ups/downs of replacing the 12V
battery with one of those.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not 100% certain, but here's the difference as I see it.
LA tech expresses Peukert's in two ways. One, when you ask for too much
current at partial charge states you will get it at lower voltages.
This means less energy and may not be enough power to perform the
required task. But people also seem to say that drawing the battery
voltage low by high current at partial charge states will reduce the
pack's life so you really can't use this capacity.
Now it seems they're saying NiFe would not be damaged as such. You'd
just get a reduced voltage. The voltage depression would mean you'd
need to draw even more current to deliver a given amount of power, so
the actual watt-hr of the batt can be significantly reduced. I see two
hard limitations. One is battery heating. The other is how low a
voltage you can live with. For example, can you achieve an acceptable
performance if the battery voltage has dropped to 60v or will the
controller be running at 100% full-on and still not able to keep up with
traffic? If your controller can handle it, more batteries may get you a
more useful hard-discharge voltage. But of course the battery heating
problem remains, in fact it may increase if you used twice as many batts
each with half the current capacity.
At least that's how I read it, but I'm not certain.
Danny
Michaela Merz wrote:
So - let's say I would put 12 x 12V in my truck. Gives me 144 V nominal
for about 6500 $ and 220 Ah @ 20hrs rate. Weight would be 1600 pounds,
same as for T-125s. My question would be, if there is a high discharge
penalty like we have with LA - the more you draw, the less you'll get ;)
I may just be to stupid to understand the datasheet ....
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mind emailing me a parts list?
If no one wants the car, I'll gladly take the parts,
depending on what they are and how cheaply I'd be able to
ship them from California to St. Louis. This would also
influence what I'd pay for them.
I'm merely looking for cheap parts for my project, so I'm
sure there's someone much more deserving out there looking
for a cheap EV, and far less likely to cannabilize or crush
your hard work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Almost Free EV!
> Mind emailing me a parts list?
>
> If no one wants the car, I'll gladly take the parts,
> depending on what they are and how cheaply I'd be able to
> ship them from California to St. Louis. This would also
> influence what I'd pay for them.
>
> I'm merely looking for cheap parts for my project, so I'm
> sure there's someone much more deserving out there looking
> for a cheap EV, and far less likely to cannabilize or crush
> your hard work.
> Hi Left Coasters
What? Nobody wants an EV? Come on guyz! There should be a waiting list
for this one!I'd have been over with a trailer had it been on the least
coast, EVen if I still had ny first car. So, Sandy Eggo, get on it! Keith
Van Sickle, got yur ears on?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:19 AM 21/05/06 -0400, you wrote:
Hi All,
We had a great time at the 5th EVer Chapter Conference in Joliet, Ill last
weekend. Despite the weather trying to play havoc with our spirits, we
prevailed. You can see what I mean at
http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/5thEVerThumbs.htm where in the Pep Boys
parking lot the White Zombie
Well lookee-lookee http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/5thEVerImgs/Dsc01683m.jpg
that'd be field weakening in White Zombie... and the race meet got cancelled!
Hey, John, have you tried it out yet?
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta' echo what Ricky said. When I sold the block,
the computer went with it. Turns out the computer
works with the MAP sensor, throttle position sensor,
etc. but does _nothing_ for the 12V line. I pulled
out all of that spaghetti, cut unapplicable wires
(easy to find, b/c they were all such tiny gauge!) and
all worked well when it was time to hook up the
keyswitch relay & load-bearing relay.
--- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My 1992 Saturn wouldn't be considered that new, but
> it still has a computer. I just kept it as the
> speedometer signal goes through it and is converted.
> Granted there are aftermarket ways around this, but
> it was already there and wasn't hurting something.
> If I ever get around to making the AC work it's
> signal also goes through the computer, but it should
> be a simple bypass because it was used just to kick
> the compressor off under full throttle. Aside from
> that the only other thing is the check engine light
> has been on, which I find kind of ironically funny.
>
> Most of the systems are designed to work
> independently so just leaving what's there alone
> should be fine. In fact I had a problem with my
> speedometer not working at first, long story short
> there were two tan colored wires under the hood I
> didn't hook back up which were ground wires for the
> ECU, took quite a bit of poking around to figure
> that one out (who uses tan for ground wires?). I
> still have some of the original engine wire
> connectors dangling there unused, which I probably
> should go through and snip out.
>
> Dave Roekle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you take a newer model car and convert it to an
> EV, what about all the
> computerized stuff in the vehicle.
>
>
>
> It seems like everything in is connected somehow to
> the computer system.
>
>
>
> Would the entire vehicle have to be re-wired to
> bypass the computer?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Dave Roekle
>
> 951-278-2370
>
> 951-278-2886 Fax
>
> AIM: daveroekle
>
> Yahoo: daveroekle
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for
> ridiculously low rates.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
It was an easy mistake for them to assume the holes were all the same
spacing. I had a similar problem with mine all being 45 degrees except the
two that were at 42 and 48 respectively. In my case I ended up with only 6
of 8 holes being used anyway. With the 10mm bolts the opinions from my
engineering friends were they were more than adequate for the electric
motor's torque and their use with the TGP shaft steel I have chosen.
So maybe if you have enough bolts you could leave a couple out? Mine are
balanced with three on each side.
Just a thought.
Mark Ward
94 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Taperlock dilemma
Thanks for your replies, your input is appreciated.
First let me explain what probably went wrong. My flywheel bolts to the
crankshaft with nine
bolts. AND an indexing dowel pin. This indexing dowel pins shifts the
location of at least one
bolt by about 3/32 of an inch. Enough so that at least bolt will never
fit. I would bet dollars to
doughnuts that whoever made the hub saw the nine bolt holes and missed the
dowel hole. They just
spaced the nine holes evenly around the hub.
I think, after considering the options, I'm going to try and find a good
shop and weld the
flywheel to the hub. For a couple of reasons.
1. I'm very patient, but my patience is wearing thin. I've been planning
and amassing EV
components for over a year. I originally planned on doing my conversion
last Spring. Now that
I've finally gotten going, I'm looking for an expeditious solution. No
more long distance
relationships, I'm finding local talent to get the job done.
2. The taperlock hub I have is VERY nice. If I send it back, it may never
get used. It was made to
fit my flywheel and I doubt there is another with the matching bolt
pattern. It'd be a shame to
waste such a nice peice of work.
3. I like the idea of welding the unit on and was planning on having the
flywheel machined anyway.
A good welder and machine shop should be able to handle the job.
4. I have absolutely no interest in going back and forth with the vendor
to get some satisfaction.
I just want to build my EV. Everything else I got was done well and the
fit and finish is top
notch. It's just that one hole is out of position.
In writing this email, I thought of one more possibility. How about
grinding that one flywheel
hole a little bigger so it lines up with the hub? It's not much material.
It's only an inch off
the center of rotation. Would a couple of grams of metal that close to the
center cause an
imbalance?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another option perhaps : Keep the adapter and modify the flywheel? slot
the holes until it bolts on, then put a dowle pin in anywhere you can,
maybe on the line between the flywheel and the register.
Find a flywheel that has that pattern?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor
It would be even easier than that. There are Fidanza flywheels for my car on
eBay all the time.
Problem is, I can't afford the $300 right now. It's the age old problem of what
I'd like to do and
what I can afford to do. An aluminum flywheel would ge great, but it may have
to wait for my next
project.
Dave Cover
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why don't you fabricate aluminum flywheel now with hole
> pattern matching existing taper lock? Even without your
> mismatch problem having aluminum flywheel is to your
> advantage. Making one on a large lathe is not difficult,
> but many companies like Fidanza will make you one without holes
> at all, or holes at specified locations.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> I think, after considering the options, I'm going to try and find a
> good shop and weld the flywheel to the hub.
Given that 8 of the 9 bolts fit, you may find that this is plenty of
strength even without the last bolt that won't fit. You could redrill
the last bolt location and put an oversized pin in this location.
If you're going to weld it, I'd mount the motor, taperlock, and flywheel
all together and spin it on the bench with a 12v battery to check for
any balancing or out of round issues. It will be much easier to correct
them when you can still unbolt it. Once you're sure it's right, then you
can weld it if necessary.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I got my S-10, the ECU had been removed, so a lot of 12V systems
didn't work (including ABS, speedo, climate). I had to rewire the brake
lights, had to get a signal converter for the speedo and had to re-trace
the circuit for the climate control. So - I can imagine that a more
intergrated system could be a mess to 're-arrange'.
Michaela
> Dave, the cars are quite complex, and rewiring will be a much bigger job.
> For example, the VW New Beetle has 4 computers:
>
> the ECU
> the dash control system
> The comfort control system
> The alarm
>
> If I removed the wiring, there would be no dash, no interior or exterior
> lights, the windows would not work as well as the locks.
>
> Another alternative, that has been done by a number of people is to leave
> in
> all the existing wiring, and then just add what you need.
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave Roekle
> Sent: May 21, 2006 8:42 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
>
> Don--
>
> Thanks for your quick response.
>
> I am not savvy enough to de-bug and figure out all the computerize stuff
> and
> work around it. I would end up tearing out everything electrical and
> re-wiring everything from scratch, which is probably overkill, but then at
> least I would know what I have and how it is wired.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 8:15 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
>
> Did have too many problems with the 1999 New Beetle. Had to leave in the
> ECU and fool a couple of circuits, but nothing that didn't take
> perseverance
> and good debugging technique.
>
> Don
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave Roekle
> Sent: May 21, 2006 8:11 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Electric Conversion / Newer Model Cars - Computerized
>
> If you take a newer model car and convert it to an EV, what about all the
> computerized stuff in the vehicle.
>
>
>
> It seems like everything in is connected somehow to the computer system.
>
>
>
> Would the entire vehicle have to be re-wired to bypass the computer?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Dave Roekle
>
> 951-278-2370
>
> 951-278-2886 Fax
>
> AIM: daveroekle
>
> Yahoo: daveroekle
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm using what's available. It's not ideal, but it is workable.
I think there is fear that paralleling won't work. But I see no data
backing up that position. But then again I see such a severe lack of
instrumentation in EV's to begin with, that having no instrumentation
installed for a parallel pack is not a surprise. Paralleled packs need
instrumentation/monitoring to work. My entire 10 day paycheckless
vacation is dedicated to finding out how well paralleled nimh works
and the circuitry required.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Death to All Spammers"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > All I could get from Carlton was that he had driven a total of 100
> > miles in his new EV. I asked him every question I could think of but
> > he did not want to respond, twice even. So I just figured it was not
> > that important to him. That's ok, I'll have plenty of my own info on
> > these packs shortly.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Unless he says otherwise, 100 miles seems like just enough time to get
> a pack made of paralleled NiMH cells to start performing badly due to
> imbalance. That's the main reason the currently-made under-10Ah NiMH's
> aren't making it into EVs, isn't it?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #44: The Detailed Results
The Results Are In!
View the results of the 2006 Tour de Sol competitions by reading the PDF
files listed below. You will need either Adobe Acrobat or another PDF viewer
to view these files.
Around Town Results
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdSAroundTownResults.pdf
Monte Carlo Rally Results
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdS_Monte_Carlo_Results.pdf
Tour de Sol Entrant List
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006_TdS_Champ_Entrant_list.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship Results
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampionshipResults.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship Awards
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006_TdS_Champ_Awards.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship Summary
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampSummary.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Hill Climb Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampHillClimbDATA.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Acceleration Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampAccelDATA.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Autocross Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampAuotcrossDATA.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Climate Change Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampClimateChangeDATA.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Efficiency Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampEfficiencyDATA.pdf
Tour de Sol Championship - Range Data
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/2006TdsChampRangeDATA.pdf
There are more Reports to come. Stay tuned.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> Maybe not top of the list, but yes just as we said before. Some
> people are not worried about cost comparisons, they just want the
> coolest features like regen.
I don't consider 'regen' to be nothing more than a 'cool' gadget. I feel
incomplete whenever I have to use raw mechanical power to bring my lead
sled to a stop converting all available energy into heat. And I am a bit
upset that we LV DCers are left in the woods. I know that you put quite
some research into that topic, too bad it hasn't grown into something we
can buy. Now - I don't have the mechanical experience to somehow get a
generator into my system. So - I have to rely on guys like you. But - and
please don't get me wrong Otmar - you make your money and you don't have
to listen to people like me. I don't want to run the quarter mile. I use
my truck to get around town, buy groceries and farm equipment, nothing
exciting.
So - I either have to wait for some interested brains to come up with a
solution I can use, or I will have to buy another regen capable system in
the future.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
peekay wrote:
> will there be a step up from say 12 volts ac to 120 volts ac IF
> the two wires have 'turns' such that the 'other' set has 10 times more
> turns than the 'first' coil?
Yes. The turns ratio sets the voltage ratio.
> i guess we need to keep in mind that this is happening in a rotating
> thingy, the ROTOR. This theory works in static transformers. This
> is known and easy to understand ..
Yes. When you put two windings on a motor, it becomes a rotating
transformer.
> I haven't seen such a construction on rotors for stepping up voltages
As I said, it's commonly done for motors that need to run on more than
one voltage. The windings are connected in series or parallel to get
different operating voltages.
Another common use is to have a single winding with one or more taps. An
external switch can apply (say) 120vac to the entire winding, or just
part of it. This changes the volts per turn, so the motor runs at
different speeds. This is common in fans -- a switch selects slow,
medium, or fast by using 1/2, 3/4, or all the winding. (Note: since this
doesn't change the frequency, the motor operate inefficiently at
anything but full speed. But what to they care; YOU are paying the
electric bill, not the manufacturer!)
Another use is in rotary converters. They have two sets of windings,
often different voltages, each of which can be AC or DC. Rotary
converters are used to transform DC to AC, AC to DC, change the voltage
up or down, or change the frequency. A dynamotor is a DC in, DC out
rotary converter. A georotor is an AC in, AC out rotary converter that
changes the frequency (60hz in, 50hz out for example).
There is one more complication that will fool the unwary. Motors
naturally have an air gap between the stator and rotor. When two
windings are physically separated (even a small amount) and/or when
there is an air gap in the core, not all the magnetic flux produced by
one coil passes through the other coil. This creates what is called
"leakage inductance". The coils behave as if there is an extra inductor
in series with them.
Now, inductors do not let you change the current in them suddenly. They
act like flywheels, whose speed can't change instantly. If you try to
change the current instantly in an inductor, it produces a huge voltage
spike (the "inductive kick") in an effort to keep the current from
changing. The actual transformer winding's voltage is strictly
controlled by the turns ratio; but the voltage across that leakage
inductor isn't! So you can get brief voltage spikes far larger than the
turns ratio.
You can see this effect clearly in a car's ignition coil. It has an iron
core with a large air gap, and the two windings are well separated. It
has a turns ratio of about 100:1, so you would expect that switching 12v
to the primary would produce 12v x 100 = 1200v on the secondary. But the
actual secondary voltage is a brief spike of more than 25,000 volts!
This comes from the leakage inductance of those two coils.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have pictures? I might be interested in the donor vehicle to start
another project with my boys. Maybe I could get the car and then send the parts
to John. I'm in Dallas area.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mind emailing me a parts list?
>
> If no one wants the car, I'll gladly take the parts,
> depending on what they are and how cheaply I'd be able to
> ship them from California to St. Louis. This would also
> influence what I'd pay for them.
>
> I'm merely looking for cheap parts for my project, so I'm
> sure there's someone much more deserving out there looking
> for a cheap EV, and far less likely to cannabilize or crush
> your hard work.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Roekle wrote:
> If you take a newer model car and convert it to an EV, what about
> all the computerized stuff in the vehicle. It seems like everything
> is connected somehow to the computer system. Would the entire
> vehicle have to be re-wired to bypass the computer?
Yes, this is getting to be a bigger problem all the time. There isn't
just one; there are literally DOZENS of computers in new cars. They all
communicate with each other, and one will often refuse to act unless
others say it's OK to do so. How they communicate, and the messages they
send are often complex and secret. The manufacturers don't want to
reveal any more than absolutely required by law, and by the need to fix
the blasted things when they break.
Usually, you can remove the engine control computer, and the rest of the
computers that run things like the antilock brakes, airbags, and
heating/cooling system can stay in place and will still work. But there
may be problems; the speedometer may no longer work, for example. This
requires some detective work and experimentation to figure out a new way
to drive it. Some wires that went to the missing engine control computer
may need to be cut, or grounded, or connected to +12v to trick the
others into working.
It's best to find someone who has converted the particular vehicle you
are thinking of, to find out what little "gotchas" they ran into, and
what they did about it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Roekle wrote:
> I am not savvy enough to de-bug and figure out all the computerize
> stuff and work around it. I would end up tearing out everything
> electrical and re-wiring everything from scratch, which is probably
> overkill, but then at least I would know what I have and how it is
> wired.
The problem is that many of the switches, motors, lights, gauges, and
controls are built to assume a computer is present. The "down" button on
the power window doesn't power the motor; it sends a coded control
signal to a computer, which sends another coded signal to a relay, which
actually runs the motor.
If you literally rewired the car, you'd have to replace most of the
switches and controls with older versions that controlled things
directly.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> My conversion has gotten to the point of working on the 12V system,
> and I was wondering about the battery weight vs. having no battery.
Battery weight is range. This applies even to the 12v battery, because
the power the 12v system uses is still all coming from the batteries,
one way or another.
The heaviest solution is a big 12v battery, sized for your worst-case
load, and no DC/DC or alternator. At the limit of your range, the 12v
battery still has plenty of juice, but you can't use it to extend range.
> I guess that's why a lot of EVers use as small of a 12V cell as
> possible, as it comes in handy for running the emergency lights, etc.
A smaller 12v battery requires a DC/DC or alternator, or it will go dead
on the proverbial dark and stormy night with the headlights, wipers,
heater fan, radio, etc. all going for hours. But you get this extra 12v
power from the propulsion pack, so it shortens range. In effect, you
move the lead from the 12v accessory battery to the propulsion pack.
> I noticed that Peter Perkins was using a Super Capacitor in his
> electric van... and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the
> ups/downs of replacing the 12V battery with one of those.
I think this is a good solution as long as your DC/DC is reliable enough
so you "never" get stranded without 12v power.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a long shot:
call the local utility and see if you can rent a box at the bottom of a
pole. my company and church lease lights atop electrical poles at a
monthly rate. so, why wouldn't an individual who has a need be able to
rent a powered box at the bottom of a pole?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I don't consider 'regen' to be nothing more than a 'cool' gadget. I feel
> incomplete whenever I have to use raw mechanical power to bring my lead
> sled to a stop converting all available energy into heat. And I am a bit
> upset that we LV DCers are left in the woods. I know that you put quite
> some research into that topic, too bad it hasn't grown into
something we
> can buy. Now - I don't have the mechanical experience to somehow get a
> generator into my system. So - I have to rely on guys like you. But
- and
> please don't get me wrong Otmar - you make your money and you don't have
> to listen to people like me. I don't want to run the quarter mile. I use
> my truck to get around town, buy groceries and farm equipment, nothing
> exciting.
>
> So - I either have to wait for some interested brains to come up with a
> solution I can use, or I will have to buy another regen capable
system in
> the future.
>
> Michaela
>
Both Curtis and ZAPI have LV series controllers with regen; they're
not perfect, but at least you don't have to sap out your motor. Or you
could get regen by swapping out for CUrtis' AC or SepEx systems.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of electric motor and converter are we talking about?
Thanks,
Ralph.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,
I must get rid of my Elektracar.
The glider is a 1980ish Datsun 310, and it is configured for 120 volts
through a cableform controller and a prestolite motor.
It was last driven about 5 years ago, and drove really well.
It had a vibration which turned out to be a bad clutch plate, put a new one
in and never ran it since.
It is fairly clean and straight.
I have been directed to get rid of it *now*, so I will take virtually any
offer (which will go toward the shop account at my school).
I would gladly deliver within 50 miles of San Diego.
Please hurry, as if it's not gone by Friday, we will send it to the crusher
on Saturday, and I'd hate to see this thing disappear.
It has a clear California title.
If anyone would like, I can email pictures of your choosing.
Thanks a million in advance,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn,
Excellent! Even if EV wasn't mentioned much, the discussion is
important in acknowledging the problem we have with respect to energy
and the environment.
Thanks,
Ralph.
Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL) wrote:
I think I heard the same show on NPR that Lawrence did. It was Friday
afternoon on NPR's Science Friday'. They were discussing renewable energy,
but specifically in the state of New York. The discussion was mostly on
bio-mass and the energy density of the Willow Tree.
There was a guest on the show named William (Bill) Moore, but I do not
believe it was the same Bill Moore of EV World. Only once toward the end of
the show did EV's come in the discussion at all, and the Bill Moore on the
show did not offer anything up about that specific topic. I was thinking
early on in show that it was Bill Moore of EV World, but was fairly
convinced it was not.
Here is a link to Science Friday's show from last Friday:
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2006/May/hour1_051906.html
Hope that helps,
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:15 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Bill Moore - EV World - NPR Radio SEARCH ?????
I think this may have been the story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5417997
... unfortunately NPR has pulled the page for the audio. Complain to
them, maybe they'll re-post it.
Ralph.
Steven Lough wrote:
Can the person, ( I think it was Rohds.. ) be more specific ??
Just did a search of the NPR using Bill Moore and EV World
Any Date any subject, and came up with.. zerrow...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I think there is fear that paralleling won't work. But I see no data
> backing up that position.
I have. I did some tests myself as well. It's not hard to demonstrate
the potential for a problem.
Get two nimh cells, preferable older used ones. Charge and discharge
each separately, so you know their capacity and have graphs of their
voltage vs. current charging curve. New cells are virtually identical;
used ones are a bit different.
You'll see that each cell's voltage is relatively flat and rises quite
slowly until it gets near full charge. Then its voltage climbs more
steeply, reaches a peak, and then starts to fall again as the cell goes
into overcharge. A lot like nicads, but the peak and drop are less
pronounced.
Now put them in parallel and charge them. You'll see that the peaking
mostly goes away, unless the two cells just happen to reach "full" at
the same time. New, well-matched ones will; old ones won't.
The voltage of whichever cell reaches full first will start to fall, its
current starts to increase, and it starts getting hot. It hogs the
current, so the second cell stops charging somewhat short of full. If
allowed to proceed (i.e. your charger was looking for a voltage peak
that never occurred), one cell get very hot, the other stay cool, and
the cells get seriously out of balancer. The overcharging of the hot
cell also causes its early demise.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Mike Phillips wrote:
I think there is fear that paralleling won't work. But I see no data
backing up that position.
Well, I have done some serious experimentation with the BB600 flooded
NiCDs in the Elec-trak with dual E-meters to monitor. One big problem
though is the E-meter is tapped into one of the strings; guess which one
goes *insane* in terms of imbalance.
Under serious conditions (ie: blowing snow, 200a peak pulls) they seem
to pull about the same. Under normal conditions I notice one side
contributes more ah than the other, usually about 10% or so. This seems
to rectify during charging.
With three sets in parallel, they still pulled within 10% of each other.
Now, this is a set of 30 cell strings and they are flooded so I can
overcharge the heck out of them to equalize. World does not end; with
NiMH sealed that's not going to work. But even with one string gassing
away at 2a rate, the other string still gets some of the charging
current (but not like 10-20a since the ferro-resonant charger really
cuts back current once voltage gets up to 44.5 volts or so (1.45 volts
per cell-ish).
The big weakness in NiCD seems to be don't tap the pack; it will lead to
a mess at charge time. I'm going to go back to parallel strings this
weekend (I disabled it because I needed the interconnects for le truck)
I'm going to run the E-meter and the lights from the two 6 volt T105's
(currently called "ballast") up front and charge them every once in
awhile or something.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The prestolite is an older series wound motor and IIRC the cableform is an
older SCR chopper. Won't win any prizes for efficiency, but it's very
reliable and you can't beat the price.
> What kind of electric motor and converter are we talking about?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I must get rid of my Elektracar.
>> The glider is a 1980ish Datsun 310, and it is configured for 120 volts
>> through a cableform controller and a prestolite motor.
>> It was last driven about 5 years ago, and drove really well.
>> It had a vibration which turned out to be a bad clutch plate, put a new
>> one
>> in and never ran it since.
>> It is fairly clean and straight.
>> I have been directed to get rid of it *now*, so I will take virtually
>> any
>> offer (which will go toward the shop account at my school).
>> I would gladly deliver within 50 miles of San Diego.
>> Please hurry, as if it's not gone by Friday, we will send it to the
>> crusher
>> on Saturday, and I'd hate to see this thing disappear.
>> It has a clear California title.
>> If anyone would like, I can email pictures of your choosing.
>> Thanks a million in advance,
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
