EV Digest 6666
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Greenpeace Report
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Greenpeace Report
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Potboxes
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GM Volt vote
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rednecks and EVs
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: wrapping up the regen discussion
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GM Kills the Volt .......... Vote
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV Battery Recycling & Toxic Waste
by "mclTunes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Battery Recycling & Toxic Waste
by "Stand Culp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Battery Recycling & Toxic Waste
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Free Electravan
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Zener reg question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Intro
by "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re:Hooking up zilla to laptop
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) RE: Hooking up zilla to laptop
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Potboxes
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV's on eBay
by "Jim Sylvester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Intro
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Recycled? The Greenpeace report, available on the net, is titled, "The Myth
of Automobile Battery Recycling." Read it yet?>>>>
I just did.....Most of the scarey scenerios DID involve recycling, done in
a primative, dangerous manner. Many of the referrences cited were from the
1990s. It seems like the "corners of the world" that we can ditch our waste
in are drying up.... This is a good thing....
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For clarification, I did not write what is quoted below. My comment was that
Federal Law in the United States requires proper management of spent lead-acid
batteries. 40 CFR Part 266 (Subtitle G) defines some of the requirements.
There's no doubt in my mind though, that unscrupulous companies have taken
advantage of less-costly management practices in parts of the world with less
stringent regulations. At one point in the not so distant past, even the USCG
used to dump spent batteries in the ocean (off the east coast somewhere if I
remember correctly).
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:07:19 AM
Subject: Re: Greenpeace Report
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Recycled? The Greenpeace report, available on the net, is titled, "The Myth
of Automobile Battery Recycling." Read it yet?>>>>
I just did.....Most of the scarey scenerios DID involve recycling, done in
a primative, dangerous manner. Many of the referrences cited were from the
1990s. It seems like the "corners of the world" that we can ditch our waste
in are drying up.... This is a good thing....
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks victor ... I did not KNOW that newer cars already had this incorporated
. I have an old ev 1 controller from the original bradley gte and I wanted to
drive by wire but did not know where to get the part .
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Potboxes
Look for throttle pedal assembly from any modern drive by wire vehicle.
IT has integrated pot. Just get that [spare] part and connect it to
your controller - it will outlast your vehicle 5 times over.
Victor
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> why have a cable running to the controller ? why not run wires to the pot
box and mount the resistor in the pot box at the accelrator pedal ? and you con
make the mounting box with a right or left maount for the control arm and the
resistor siomply is mounted on the end of the control arm and there is no need
for figuring out cables !!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:17 AM
> Subject: RE: Potboxes
>
>
> Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy
growing
> up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
>
> damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.gmsurveys2.com/se.ashx?s=7C7FD94F76D8CE27
Just tried it and the count is 449,600 responses
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 99% of lead-acid batteries are recycled...
Michael Moore says he doesn't recycle because its a fraud...
Like most extreme statements, I think the truth lies somewhere between.
I've taken EV-loads of batteries to Midwest Metals, my local recycler. I
know for a fact that they recycle the lead, because they break them up
and separate the materials themselves.
But I've also taken bad batteries to Radio Shack (who claims to recycle
them), then had an employee tell me they just dump them in the trash
after the customer leaves because it's too much cost and bother to
package and ship them out for recycling.
I'm sure it's like this with most recycled goods. Some actually reuse
the material, and others just *say* they do to lure you into their store
to buy more stuff. There is no accountability; no "Good Housekeeping
Seal of Approval" to tell you what they really do with the stuff.
At least with the high price of lead, there is a high value in actually
recycling it. Like having a 10 cent deposit on pop bottles, it makes it
far more likely that they actually *will* get returned rather than
thrown in the trash.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
2) DC shunt type motors can do regen, also reverse, but require a
special controller for both.
I'd say "different" rather than special. The controller for a shunt
motor is actually simpler than for a series motor. You can switch power
straight to the armature with contactors, and do all your speed control
with the field, for instance.
3) Curtis does make such a controller, but its only made or only
available in low-voltage ( i.e. golf car market) sizes,
typically 48 V max.
The Curtis 1221R is a 120v controller.
Isn't the 1221R intended for series wound motors and not shunt/sepex motors?
Yes. Same for the Zapi H2 and HFM. These are controllers with regen for
series DC motors.
GE made controllers for high voltage DC shunt/sepex motors, for the
Chrysler TEVan and EPIC EVs -- I don't recall the voltage but I think it
was around 180v. The Soleq EVcort had a 108v sepex motor controller. I'm
sure there are other examples over 72v, but these are the ones I can recall.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
standard 60hz motor... 4-pole, 1750 rpm, so when you run it at 2x the
frequency, it only goes up to 3500 rpm, where balancing and bearing
issues won't cause problems.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What type of mods would need to be done to that same motor to make
it be able to handle 6,000+rpm? How much voltage/amps/watts can
this same motor ultimately take? What is the weak link in a typical
AC motor?
You need to keep in mind that these mass produced motors have been
highly optimized for cost, and so don't include any more extra material
than absolutely necessary.
Step one is to balance the rotor. The rotors of induction motors are the
same no matter how many poles they have. At 1750 rpm, and even 3450 rpm,
they probably didn't bother to balance the rotor. It will be physically
strong enough for 6000-8000 rpm if balanced.
Step two are the bearings. You may have to change them for better
quality units, built for higher rpm and bigger side loading. This is
especially important if you are going to hang a heavy flywheel or torque
converter on it.
Step three is cooling. The internal fan is tiny; barely enough to handle
full-speed operation at its rated full load. A traction motor will spend
a lot more time at low rpm and high torque, so you'll need to add an
external cooling blower.
With these changes, you can easily run the motor at 2-4 times its rated
nameplate horsepower. A 10hp motor can deliver 40hp by running it at 2x
rated voltage, 2x rated frequency, and 2x rated current.
It gets a lot more difficult beyond this. At more than about 2:1 higher
frequency, the magnetic losses in the laminations get high -- you'd have
to rebuild the motor with thinner or better laminations. At more than
about 2:1 rated current for more than a minute or two, the aluminum
rotor windings will melt -- you'd have to replace them with a copper
rotor, which is a lot more expensive. If you try to go for higher
voltages or temperatures, the winding insulation may be a problem -- it
would have to be rewound.
Of course, when you buy an expensive AC traction motor, these are all
the things that have been done to it for you (and the reason for the
high price).
Are you saying the design is not scalable? Why can't things like this
be scaled up to ~10,000 amps and ~650+ volts? Excluding money; what
are the limiting factors?
Nothing stops you from starting with a bigger AC motor. If you want a
100kw drive, start with a 25hp 60hz rated AC motor. But you can expect
it to weigh 200-300 lbs.
The main limiting factor in an induction motor is that it depends on
transformer action to power the field (the rotor). At higher power, this
transformer saturates, so your field maxes out. To get around this, you
have to add slip rings and externally power the field. This is done for
big induction motors in cranes, elevators, and other places where it
needs to handle really big peak loads.
The second limiting problem is slip; it represents a power loss that
isn't present in most other motors. As you increase the power from a
given motor, the slip keeps getting larger, which means lower efficiency
and more internal heat. The only way around this is again to externally
power the field, but with DC, which turns it into a synchronous motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe your new friend would like one of these.
http://www.codeoneauto.com/forsale/hopegolfsidefar.jpg LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Rednecks and EVs
> Well it is another Friday night and after work I fired up my petrol, non
> environmentally, non carbon neutral,1500 cc V twin Drifter that gets over
50
> MPG due to modifications I have made. OK, no excuses. Anyway, on my way
home
> from my regular Friday night stop at our local brew pub I decided to visit
> one of our more well known red neck establishments which just happens to
be
> only a few blocks from my home. The reason for this is due to some
extremely
> weird quirk of fate because it just happens to be a bar that Tim Brehm's
> sister Miranda works at. As you all know Tim is the driver of John
Wayland's
> "White Zombie". Well, anyway, me and Miranda already know each other. I
sit
> down next to a wrinkled up older gentleman. He was quite friendly and we
> struck up a conversation. He was from a NASCAR reality and had never heard
> of electric drag racing. The whole conversation was actually quite
> interesting. He had mostly been in the heavy equipment industry. The
figures
> I was telling him on electric rag racing were blowing his mind. He was
very
> old and very wrinkled. His nose from a sculptural perspective was
> incredible. His nose first spread out and then narrowed. On the end it was
> bulbous with a deep crease in the middle with flared nostrils. He had one
of
> the most incredible noses I have ever seen! Oops, oops, way off topic
here.
> Sorry. My only excuse is that I used to sculpt human faces. Anyway, back
to
> reality, by the time we were done conversing this elderly redneck who was
at
> least three years older than me seriously wanted to learn more about
> electric cars.
>
> Roderick
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> roger : do you have a web site for the zapi SEM-3 controller?
<http://www.zapiinc.com/sem.html>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy I found this recently. There's lots of other academic/governmental
studies, though scientists inside the current EPA say their work is
highly censored, so caveat emptor there. But this stuff from Argonne
looks untainted from the 30,000 foot viewpoint.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/greet_gold_standard.html
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/research/engine/index.html
The CARB site in CA likely has a lot of links too, also maybe various
UCs, or Los Alamos LANL, Sandia might too, when they aren't making bombs
they do friendly work.
MA is MASS not Maine BTW. But point still well taken. Theres a lot of
work to do to get substantial fractions of sustainables on the grid, few
people have access still. Our Million Solar Roofs are supposed to be
coming, but I've no idea when. Maybe it was all talk by the Governator.
Also I think ( admittedly anecdotal) about some friends in Vt who
proudly live off-grid, but have a backup diesel generator and an ancient
pickup truck. Their emissions are likely higher than grid-based folks
with new cars. Its tough to figure out this stuff, I wonder if the PIRGs
or NRDC have numbers state-by-state on powerplant emissions, I bet they
do. Then one could figure out the emissions if not the over-all
efficiency of their individual EV. Its bound to be better than an
average car, or even a Prius, at least in most states.
JF
Randy Burleson wrote:
In MA we have millions of folks buying this alternative,
so I would say that's not "fringe".
Those millions may not be 'fringe' in Maine,
Can anyone point to unbiased real-world numbers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
great that post generated ( sorry) a lot of good info.
thanks all.
So now what I think I hear is this:
1) maybe I can rethink 72V
2) maybe I can do dual motors- theres a controller for this.
3) AC motors are very expensive unless you rebuild a commonplace one
extensively, or use a very heavy one, which might be smart in a heavy EV
like a truck.
4) lots of other things are possible with extensive hacking, but not
off-the-shelf.
cheers
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alternatively, vote with your wallet. Don't buy GM products. Tell them
that you won't buy from GM until they offer an electric vehicle. Go to
the local dealership and ask to test drive an electric vehicle. When the
sales-critter says they don't offer any electric vehicles, tell them that
you won't buy GM products until they do.
As long as people buy what the auto manufacturers offer, they have no
incentive to offer anything else...
Ralph
Joseph Lado writes:
>
>
>
> It looks like GM, in all its infinite wisdom, has taken the VOLT
> Vote down. They did so just as the vote was fast approaching the half million
> mark. On April 7 I took snap shot of the survey and it stood at just under
> 450,000 votes tallied of which 446,118 said that GM should build the VOLT and
> another 445,187 voters said to GM that they would buy the vehicle if it were
> made. Big, big numbers to say the least, however, I was hoping that the vote
> would reach the psychological milestone of 500,000. There is just no denying a
> number like half a million votes. If GM ever says there isnt enough demand
> for
> alternative fuel vehicles remind them that they can use their fingers and
> their
> toes to count. Read on for action.
>
>
>
>
>
> The psychological symbol of going over a half a million I
> think was too great for GM to simply let stand. It could virtually eliminate
> their ability to deny that there is sufficient demand for ultra fuel efficient
> vehicles and vehicles that operate on alternative fuels. Their willingness to
> remove the Volt vote speaks volumes about GMs commitment to putting into the
> market place innovations that have the highest possibility of saving us from
> the wild price swings of being attached to one source of fuel for our
> automobiles. Prices for gasoline in my area as of April 13, 2007 were at
> approximately $3.00 a gallon. We
> need to press upon GM and the other automakers that we as consumers want these
> greener products.
>
>
>
>
>
> So here is what we are going to do. What we are going to do
> is to talk directly to GM through their Chevrolet Contact Us page. We are
> going
> to ask GM to put the Volt vote site back up, of course maintaining the votes
> already cast. To do this go to the Web address below and put something like
> this in the message:
>
>
>
>
>
> I want buy a vehicle
> like the Volt that uses clean electricity most of the time, but has the
> ability
> to operate continuously through the use of a generator allowing me to go long
> distances. Please put the Volt Vote site back up so that I can register my
> vote.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.chevrolet.com/contactus/getinformation/
>
>
>
>
>
> PS. If any of you were able to capture a screen shot of the
> Volt Vote after the 7th and before they took it off the website
> please show us what the final numbers were. Thank you. JL
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These questions may have been asked here before, but I'm a newbie to the
list:
1. how are batteries recycled?
2. what are the toxic wastes resulting from the process of existing
best recycling practices?
3. what happens to the toxic wastes? Where do they go?
Sorry if these are not new questions, but if someone could at least point me
in the right direction.
Thanks.
-- Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ditto for me!
I've been pondering lead-acid vs other battery types, and will probably go
lead-acid unless I can find active recycling of other battery types at least
starting before I finish the motor and controller install on the 92 S10
donor I'm picking up TODAY (I'm leaving to go get'r now!) Any and all
recycling info is VERY important data for an educated green decision.
ty, ty, thank you!
On 4/14/07, mclTunes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
These questions may have been asked here before, but I'm a newbie to the
list:
1. how are batteries recycled?
2. what are the toxic wastes resulting from the process of existing
best recycling practices?
3. what happens to the toxic wastes? Where do they go?
Sorry if these are not new questions, but if someone could at least point
me
in the right direction.
Thanks.
-- Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With these changes, you can easily run the motor at 2-4 times its rated
nameplate horsepower. A 10hp motor can deliver 40hp by running it at 2x
rated voltage, 2x rated frequency, and 2x rated current.
A couple of questions and observations: I think the key to getting
enough power is to really be able to separate the motor into separate
windings. I suspect that it may be easier on a 4-pole machine because
many of the motors that I've been looking at are 230V/460V, but perhaps
maybe only 115V is possible by further splitting of a 4-pole, and a
2-pole couldn't be split further than 230V.
The external cooling fan should not be a big problem, really. Bearings
are easy to change, and the rotor balancing should be no problem either.
Victor - can the MES-DEA inverters handle different motors (such as an
adapted industrial motor, and what sort of encoder does it need? Also,
can you just buy the inverter without a matching motor? I was under the
impression that usually only motor+controller pairs are sold?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if these are not new questions, but if someone could at least point
me
in the right direction.
These are good places to start-
http://www.leadacidbatteryinfo.org/lead-acid-battery-recycling.htm
http://www.batterycouncil.org/recycling.html
http://www.green.ca.gov/EPP/Batteries/default.htm
http://www.crownbattery.com/en/support/recycling.html
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new
payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could not locate the motor/tranny on Evtradingpost.com
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 11:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Free Electravan
lol So that's what happened to it. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Free Electravan
>
> Hmmm... that's interesting.
>
> The Electravan motor/trans combo on the evtradinpost.com just happens to
be in Berkeley also.
>
> Wish I was in Berkeley. Nah, not really. I like it here.
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
>
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:01:50 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I saw the Electravan. It is rough but no rougher than my Electravan was
> > when I got it. EVen in out dry environment the bottom of both fenders
had
> > rust at the bottoms. However the back battery box is intact with no
rust
> > from acid drip. Mine had several holes. It is mostly there. Needs new
> > windshield. No motor or transmission. The body is straight. Taking
this
> > for free will save mega time in EV construction. It EVen has the
> > highvoltage cables to the rear box intact. This is a durable vehicle.
> > I'd
> > run not walk into this project. It's all setup for electric conversion.
> > It's located in Berkeley. Call number below for details Don't contact
> > me
> > unless you have questions of the physical condition. Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Amber Rich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:26:06 -0700
> >> From: "Amber Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Subject: ElectraVan Body
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> We have an old ElectraVan body (motor has been taken
> >> apart over the
> >> years). It is in pretty rough shape. We would love
> >> to have it
> >> working for our organization, but we don't have the
> >> time or resources
> >> to do so, thus we are looking to get rid of the
> >> body. It may be that
> >> it just has to be sent to the scrap yard, but I
> >> wanted to check and
> >> see if someone out there might be able to make use
> >> of it since it
> >> seems to be a great moment in EV history, and
> >> hopefully just a
> >> beginning.
> >>
> >> We appreciate any advice that you may have.
> >>
> >> Amber Rich
> >> Executive Director
> >> Tinkers Workshop
> >> 510 644 2577
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Frank John,
I made a write-up of zener reg testing, just in case.
I think that the difference in batteries is what you see,
although zener regulators may reduce the difference over a
long time, they do not go away (that is the whole point of
the regulators - they push the batteries to a certain point,
they can only push them closer together if there is a time
that they are not equal.
To bring them together faster, you need to *lower* the current
that you are charging at, until at least one regulator goes off.
(I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but that is how it works.)
For others who have built zener regs or want to build them,
I have made a little write-up on how to test them, as it is
real easy to make a mistake and have a wrong zener in there,
or accidentally have 2 of the same kind (6.2 or 6.8V) in one
regulator, which will upset the balance if the rest is all
regulating at 13V (6.2 + 6.8V) - you have built an unbalancer!
With your regs already on the batteries, you only need to
measure the voltage of the batteries and the lamp (or resistor)
to know if they are working correctly - lamp should get 13V
less than the battery voltage. If the battery is 14.8V then
the lamp should get 1.8V for example.
How to test zener regs before installation on 12V battery:
==========================================================
Starting point: a PR2 bulb and 10 Ohm resistor parallel, each
side connected to a zener diode which is connected to a battery
terminal. Each zener is embedded in a ring lug for cooling.
Both are 5W types, one is 6.2V the other 6.8V. Resistor is 1W.
Necessary tools: variable power supply and multimeter.
Turn the power supply to 3V and connect the zener reg
if the bulb lights up, you have the regulator backwards
connected. Swap + and - and proceed.
Turn the power supply up to 9V
If the bulb lights brightly then you might have the 6.8V
zener backwards, so it is a diode (0.7V instead of 6.8)
If the bulb lights not so brightly then you may have the
6.2V zener backwards, so both zeners drop 6.8V + 0.7V =
7.5V, which results in 1.5V across the bulb, measure
which zener is wrong and repair (turn it around or use it
for another regulator at the opposite battery terminal)
before proceeding.
Turn the power supply up to 15V
The bulb must be lit now, else the bulb is broken.
If the bulb lights very brightly then you may have two
zevers of 6.2V in the circuit instead of one 6.8V, so
the bulb gets 15 -6.2 -6.2 = 2.6V instead of 2V.
Likewise if the bulb is rather dimly lit, there may
be two 6.8V zeners in the circuit.
Measure the zener voltages to verify they are 6.2 and 6.8V
so the lamp gets 2V.
NOTE: with the lamp lit, the circuit should draw up to 0.7A
and the zeners get warm quickly, so work quickly or reduce
Voltage while preparing for a measurement to avoid
over-heating the zeners.
In the final installation the battery terminals will cool
the ring lugs that guide the heat away from the zeners.
Note that in particular the 6.8V zener is working near
its max rating when fully bypassing up to 0.5A through the
lamp and 0.2A through the resistor = 0.7A, resulting in
6.8V x 0.7A = 4.8W power. If your pack is unbalanced then
some regulators may see up to 16V which can push zeners
over their max ratings.
If you measure a zener to be a short circuit, then it is
broken. This is the normal failure mode of a zener,
especially when it overheats. (Internal meltdown)
Happy regulation!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Zener reg question
From: Lee Hart
> "I'd measure the voltage across each battery when you see the lamps at
> different brightnesses. You should find that the dimmer one is at a
> lower voltage, evidence that it is taking more charging current to
> reach the same state of charge as the other two."
Frank John wrote:
> Lee, this is what I've done and the most positive battery is always
> .1 volt lower than the middle battery which is always .1 volt lower
> than the most negative battery.
There is no intrinsic reason why batteries at one end of a series string are
any different than any others. Any differences you see are from things like
tapping the pack, temperature or other unintended difference between
batteries, or excessive leakage currents from dirty batteries, etc.
The other point you may have missed is that there are *always* differences
between batteries. You can't totally eliminate them by equalizing or any
other process. The regulator's lamps will *always* end up at different
brightnesses, proportional to how large thense intrinsic difference between
your batteries are.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I got a wake up call on both the Saft and the marathon (bb600).
New:
BB600 $265/cell
SAFT 5-100
David,
Saft EV/HEV div. does not market product through reps or distributors. See
the attached info for Nicads. We are not staffed with technical support for
small consumer applications. You can purchase the STM modules through this
office, however you must determine what you want based on the attached info.
We cannot help you design a battery.
For Ni-MH and Li-ON applications, this is being handled by Saft/Johnson
Controls joint venture but is limited to very large volume automotive
applications.
Pricing for Nicads is as follows:
STM5-100MR/MRE - $605.00 ea
STM5-140MR - $924.00 ea
Please note that STM5-180MR is no longer available.
Terms and Conditions:
All pricing is in constant 2007 U.S. dollars.
Battery module prices include top nuts and washers.
Battery trays are not included in price table, but can be furnished at an
additional cost.
Pricing and ratings subject to change without notice.
Payment terms are net 30 days, subject to credit approval (3 references
required).
Standard packing is for domestic shipment.
Batteries are shipped in a discharged state.
Shipments are F.O.B. Valdosta, GA, freight collect or prepay and add..
Lead times for delivery will be established at time of quotation. Current
lead time is 20-26 weeks ARO.
Module blocking - not Saft supply.
Cooling Kits:
Air cooled $40/module
Water cooled $60/module.
STM5-100MRE only
Karl Firsching
Railway Sales Manager
Saft America Inc.
120 Cockeysville Road, Suite 102
Cockeysville, MD 21030
Phone: 229-245-3081
Fax: 410-329-9802
Cell: 443-690-7673
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: www.saftbatteries.com
Well that pretty much eliminates NiCad's for me.
I'm in the same boat. Just picking up parts as I go.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Balcer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Intro
Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area. It
looks to me that this is a combination of the low Peukert's number, as
well as the low internal resistance, and the deeper discharge possible
as compared to Lead Acid.
Now thats just for a DC system, no regen braking at 144v, using a
zilla 1k, and an ADC motor. His AC stuff doesn't work, but from all
accounts the AC systems get 5%+ better efficiency because of the high
voltage, and you get regen braking built in, which will give another 2
- 4% range.
So, it seems that using SAFT NiCads you can get the range I mentioned.
The Marathon NiCads seem wimpier, and not all that much better than
lead acids. I'd need 4 strings of 120 of them, which weigh not quite
double the SAFT however it does give somewhat better range than one
SAFT string, of about 25%, so although SAFT strings would give better
range kg per kg, the problem of voltage means the BB600s would be much
easier to handle.
Of course, deal is you're talking about adding 2260 lbs to the car,
which means you have to beef up the frame and put in special
suspension components. I'm guessing that those additions will be
cheaper than a24x6 SAFT string, and an additional string of 12x12s to
bring the range up a smidge, considering one 5-100 MRE costs something
like $500+ :) Let alone easier to configure.
All of this is with DC components only and no regen, so I'm fairly
certain that I could squeeze the same range from an AC system, if not
much more. But, maybe with these numbers, I can go straight DC and
save a few thousand on the conversion.
I could also figure out how crazy of an idea it is to get a small
12x12 pack to function as an acceleration pack. Slap in some heavy
diodes and you should be ok, no? Assuming that is viable, it would
give a bit more range since the main pack would drain a lot more on
acceleration watt per watt than a pack designed to handle short, heavy
loads. Cheaper than Ultracaps, anyway :)
So, there is my rumination! Just so you guys know, I don't intend on
buying anything right now except the car itself, and maybe a few
components. One step at a time, and I don't currently have the whole
nut to spend! My house needs painting and my kitchen is being redone.
Woot.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
GE made controllers for high voltage DC shunt/sepex motors, for the
Chrysler TEVan and EPIC EVs -- I don't recall the voltage but I think it
was around 180v. The Soleq EVcort had a 108v sepex motor controller. I'm
sure there are other examples over 72v, but these are the ones I can
recall.
AFAIK, Chrysler's EPIC uses AC drive. At least 1999 model with NiMH
batteries as shown here:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/epic.pdf
There is no mention of the drive type in this doc, but I know for fact
it uses Siemens 5134WS20 motors - I supplied two of those to Cliff
Rassweiler who uses them in his Electric Imp - racing Sub Impreza.
Here is photo of it as was used in these EPICs:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5134.jpg
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There is no mention of the drive type in this doc,
> but I know for fact
> it uses Siemens 5134WS20 motors -
I could be mistaken, but I think the Epic used a
Westinghouse drive (this division is in the dustbin of
history I believe).
I had a test drive in an Epic at the Chrysler proving
grounds back in 1995. Quite an impressive ride
compared to the TEVan. Much more powerful and
excellent hill climbing ability.
Rod
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > GE made controllers for high voltage DC
> shunt/sepex motors, for the
> > Chrysler TEVan and EPIC EVs -- I don't recall the
> voltage but I think it
> > was around 180v. The Soleq EVcort had a 108v sepex
> motor controller. I'm
> > sure there are other examples over 72v, but these
> are the ones I can
> > recall.
>
> AFAIK, Chrysler's EPIC uses AC drive. At least 1999
> model with NiMH
> batteries as shown here:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/epic.pdf
> There is no mention of the drive type in this doc,
> but I know for fact
> it uses Siemens 5134WS20 motors - I supplied two of
> those to Cliff
> Rassweiler who uses them in his Electric Imp -
> racing Sub Impreza.
> Here is photo of it as was used in these EPICs:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/5134.jpg
>
> Victor
> --
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone in the phoenix area have experence hooking up a zilla to a
laptop?Can you help me? D.Berube </HTML>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have the optional RJ11 to DB9 connector cable (adaptor) from Otmar?
If you have that then all you need is a terminal program like Hyperterminal
which usually comes with Windows.
If you don't have the cable, or are not running windows let us know and we can
customize some instructions.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 3:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re:Hooking up zilla to laptop
>
>
> Does anyone in the phoenix area have experence hooking up a zilla to a
> laptop?Can you help me? D.Berube </HTML>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 14, 2007, at 9:18 AM, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
thanks victor ... I did not KNOW that newer cars already had this
incorporated . I have an old ev 1 controller from the original
bradley gte and I wanted to drive by wire but did not know where to
get the part .
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Potboxes
Look for throttle pedal assembly from any modern drive by wire
vehicle.
IT has integrated pot. Just get that [spare] part and connect it to
your controller - it will outlast your vehicle 5 times over.
Victor brings up a great point, but there is a potential "gotcha." It
would be handy to know which vehicles used a pot in the 0k to 5k ohm
range or somewhat greater (like 0-7k ohms) and used in the correct
direction (0 ohms is no throttle.) Perhaps the auto makers have started
to standardize - but somehow I doubt it :-)
Perhaps my '66 Datsun will be getting a throttle body.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone familiar with an eagle what drive system they use. I'm about 50 miles
from orlando.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:08 AM
Subject: EV's on eBay
A couple of Eagles on eBay this AM - dead batteriesneed to be replaced -
good starters for someone in the Orlando, FL area. Item #180106819742
is one of them.
Joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As of last summer, Lawrence Rhodes had some Marathon BB600s for sale at
around $10 per cell. I don't know if he still have them or not, but you
might want to try contacting him. Some of his vehicles and his Email
can be found here: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/418
Bill Dennis
David Hankins wrote:
Well I got a wake up call on both the Saft and the marathon (bb600).
New:
BB600 $265/cell
SAFT 5-100
David,
Saft EV/HEV div. does not market product through reps or distributors. See
the attached info for Nicads. We are not staffed with technical support for
small consumer applications. You can purchase the STM modules through this
office, however you must determine what you want based on the attached info.
We cannot help you design a battery.
For Ni-MH and Li-ON applications, this is being handled by Saft/Johnson
Controls joint venture but is limited to very large volume automotive
applications.
Pricing for Nicads is as follows:
STM5-100MR/MRE - $605.00 ea
STM5-140MR - $924.00 ea
Please note that STM5-180MR is no longer available.
Terms and Conditions:
All pricing is in constant 2007 U.S. dollars.
Battery module prices include top nuts and washers.
Battery trays are not included in price table, but can be furnished at an
additional cost.
Pricing and ratings subject to change without notice.
Payment terms are net 30 days, subject to credit approval (3 references
required).
Standard packing is for domestic shipment.
Batteries are shipped in a discharged state.
Shipments are F.O.B. Valdosta, GA, freight collect or prepay and add..
Lead times for delivery will be established at time of quotation. Current
lead time is 20-26 weeks ARO.
Module blocking - not Saft supply.
Cooling Kits:
Air cooled $40/module
Water cooled $60/module.
STM5-100MRE only
Karl Firsching
Railway Sales Manager
Saft America Inc.
120 Cockeysville Road, Suite 102
Cockeysville, MD 21030
Phone: 229-245-3081
Fax: 410-329-9802
Cell: 443-690-7673
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: www.saftbatteries.com
Well that pretty much eliminates NiCad's for me.
I'm in the same boat. Just picking up parts as I go.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Balcer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Intro
Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area. It
looks to me that this is a combination of the low Peukert's number, as
well as the low internal resistance, and the deeper discharge possible
as compared to Lead Acid.
Now thats just for a DC system, no regen braking at 144v, using a
zilla 1k, and an ADC motor. His AC stuff doesn't work, but from all
accounts the AC systems get 5%+ better efficiency because of the high
voltage, and you get regen braking built in, which will give another 2
- 4% range.
So, it seems that using SAFT NiCads you can get the range I mentioned.
The Marathon NiCads seem wimpier, and not all that much better than
lead acids. I'd need 4 strings of 120 of them, which weigh not quite
double the SAFT however it does give somewhat better range than one
SAFT string, of about 25%, so although SAFT strings would give better
range kg per kg, the problem of voltage means the BB600s would be much
easier to handle.
Of course, deal is you're talking about adding 2260 lbs to the car,
which means you have to beef up the frame and put in special
suspension components. I'm guessing that those additions will be
cheaper than a24x6 SAFT string, and an additional string of 12x12s to
bring the range up a smidge, considering one 5-100 MRE costs something
like $500+ :) Let alone easier to configure.
All of this is with DC components only and no regen, so I'm fairly
certain that I could squeeze the same range from an AC system, if not
much more. But, maybe with these numbers, I can go straight DC and
save a few thousand on the conversion.
I could also figure out how crazy of an idea it is to get a small
12x12 pack to function as an acceleration pack. Slap in some heavy
diodes and you should be ok, no? Assuming that is viable, it would
give a bit more range since the main pack would drain a lot more on
acceleration watt per watt than a pack designed to handle short, heavy
loads. Cheaper than Ultracaps, anyway :)
So, there is my rumination! Just so you guys know, I don't intend on
buying anything right now except the car itself, and maybe a few
components. One step at a time, and I don't currently have the whole
nut to spend! My house needs painting and my kitchen is being redone.
Woot.
--T
--- End Message ---
