EV Digest 6670
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) NdFeB magnets in motors?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NdFeB magnets in motors?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery charges and mileage
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: An Electravan Shame story
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: CURTIS CONTROLLER SCHEMATIC? Re: Putting a value on Curtis 1221B
72-120 V / 400 A controller core
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NdFeB magnets in motors?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: NdFeB magnets in motors?
by "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Silly Tweety!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) RE: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hooking up zilla to laptop
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Who Killed the Electric Car
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Over the past ten years or so, industrial induction motors have
undergone some changes.
One thing that they havent changed, is that they tend to come in very
heavy, the power/weight of a regular ACIM is pretty abysmal when
compared to PMAC for example.
Lightweight stator/case designs that do exist are not as high-volume
products and tend to be more expensive, accordingly.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking for a ABS or Polyester 10X11X4 approx high box for my
contactors and relays. Something with a screw top not mote than 5"H.
Does anyone know of a good source? I've looked at Hoffman, Budd,
Hammond. Any others? Other suggestions? I don't want to use metal of
aluminum.
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I was addressing the issue in general. That is controlling a shunt motor
speed by field only. I see Lee has posted his method and overcame some of the
issue with a clutch or starting resistor.
Most shunt motor speed controllers are in fact separately excited motor
controllers and have two sections, 1.) a PWM field control and 2.) a PWM
armature control. These work in conjuction with each other. They usually
provide contactorless reversing and regenerative braking. You can use two
motors, each with a controller or, if you can get one, a single controller to
run two motors.
Hope this answers your question.
Jeff
john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jeff could you explain at greater length?
I thought he was talking about using 2 72V shunt DC motors with as a way of
getting around the power limitations of 72V
and lack of off-the-shelf controllers for regen DC motors above 72V.
At some level of crudeness one could have separate controllers, couldn't you?
Not that I think its a cost effective
thing to do, just trying to get educated.
thanks
John
Jeff Major wrote:
> Regarding the control for shunt motor as stated below, I would not recommend
> anyone try this for an EV. Field control for speed control on a shunt wound
> motor is effective only above base speed (usually a couple thousand rpm) and
> provides no armature current limiting. You would still need some armature
> voltage control method.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote: john fisher wrote:
>
>
>
>> 2) DC shunt type motors can do regen, also reverse, but require a
>> special controller for both.
>
> I'd say "different" rather than special. The controller for a shunt
> motor is actually simpler than for a series motor. You can switch power
> straight to the armature with contactors, and do all your speed control
> with the field, for instance.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kert,
You may be overlooking the whole point. By increasing frequency (RPM) and
load, one is able to increase the output 5 to 10 times the normal 60Hz, TENV
rating of the industrial ACIM. This will bring the power density close to the
PMSM.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Over the past ten years or so, industrial induction motors have
undergone some changes.
One thing that they havent changed, is that they tend to come in very
heavy, the power/weight of a regular ACIM is pretty abysmal when
compared to PMAC for example.
Lightweight stator/case designs that do exist are not as high-volume
products and tend to be more expensive, accordingly.
-kert
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I was interested to read about NdFeB magnets being used to create a
high power windmill.
http://www.otherpower.com/wisc06.html
The construction of the hub generator especially!
I'm sure a hub motor (or 4 of them)could be built using this method
to give us a motor of appropriate size for each wheel in a
conversion. Is anyone doing this and do any of the motor experts here
have comment's on the technology?
Please! I am not asking about the weight issue with regard to the
problem of increased unsprung weight as that has been discussed to
death already! Only the motor technology.
Thanks
Tom
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to
Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Dutko wrote:
> I'm looking for a ABS or Polyester 10X11X4 approx high box for my
> contactors and relays. Something with a screw top not mote than 5"H.
These are NEMA4X, and they have some that are 10x8x4, 12x10x4, 13x11x4
(ish; all are slightly over 4" tall, but under 5"):
<http://www.carlon.com/Master%20Catalog/Himeline_HE_Series_Enclosures_Br
ochure.pdf>
If you can use 12x12x4, then you should be able to find a suitable
NEMA4/4X Carlon junction box off-the-shelf at your local Home Depot:
<http://www.carlon.com/Master%20Catalog/Junction_Boxes_Brochure.pdf>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No i see what you are saying .. but there are other variables to
consider, like whether the bearings are going to take the increased
load. What you are basically saying is that all the motor components,
winding insulation, rotor and bearings are overbuilt with a 10x
margin, provided there is sufficient cooling.
Ebay query "inverter duty" lists a couple nice ACIMs right now from
Marathon, Baldor and Reliance Electric, ranging from $50-$150 bucks
and 1 to 5 hp... i might get myself one of these and do some
potentially destructive testing behind concrete walls and with careful
monitoring
Which prompts the question .. i wonder how one would monitor the
temperature of the rotor in a simple way ? Stator is easy enough
-kert
On 4/16/07, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Kert,
You may be overlooking the whole point. By increasing frequency (RPM) and
load, one is able to increase the output 5 to 10 times the normal 60Hz, TENV
rating of the industrial ACIM. This will bring the power density close to the
PMSM.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Over the past ten years or so, industrial induction motors have
undergone some changes.
One thing that they havent changed, is that they tend to come in very
heavy, the power/weight of a regular ACIM is pretty abysmal when
compared to PMAC for example.
Lightweight stator/case designs that do exist are not as high-volume
products and tend to be more expensive, accordingly.
-kert
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
Nothing new about axial air gap motors (or generators). Or moving coil. Or
permanent magnet. Or NdFeB. Kind of looks like Lynch or Lynx motors. What B
& S Etek tried to be. This particular design does not look very good to me.
16 pole field and 9 coil stator. I'll have to think on that a while.
http://www.lightengineering.com/default.htm
I think it is similar to these guys' concept.
Jeff
Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi
I was interested to read about NdFeB magnets being used to create a
high power windmill.
http://www.otherpower.com/wisc06.html
The construction of the hub generator especially!
I'm sure a hub motor (or 4 of them)could be built using this method
to give us a motor of appropriate size for each wheel in a
conversion. Is anyone doing this and do any of the motor experts here
have comment's on the technology?
Please! I am not asking about the weight issue with regard to the
problem of increased unsprung weight as that has been discussed to
death already! Only the motor technology.
Thanks
Tom
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kert,
Not that rotor temperature is not important, but these cast rotors have no
insulation. Melting point of aluminum is 660 deg C. The stator limit should
be in the 150 to180 d C range. Keep your stator within limit and the rotor
will probably be all right.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No i see what you are saying .. but there are other variables to
consider, like whether the bearings are going to take the increased
load. What you are basically saying is that all the motor components,
winding insulation, rotor and bearings are overbuilt with a 10x
margin, provided there is sufficient cooling.
Ebay query "inverter duty" lists a couple nice ACIMs right now from
Marathon, Baldor and Reliance Electric, ranging from $50-$150 bucks
and 1 to 5 hp... i might get myself one of these and do some
potentially destructive testing behind concrete walls and with careful
monitoring
Which prompts the question .. i wonder how one would monitor the
temperature of the rotor in a simple way ? Stator is easy enough
-kert
On 4/16/07, Jeff Major wrote:
> Kert,
>
> You may be overlooking the whole point. By increasing frequency (RPM) and
> load, one is able to increase the output 5 to 10 times the normal 60Hz, TENV
> rating of the industrial ACIM. This will bring the power density close to the
> PMSM.
>
> Jeff
>
> Kaido Kert wrote:
> >>Over the past ten years or so, industrial induction motors have
> undergone some changes.
>
> One thing that they havent changed, is that they tend to come in very
> heavy, the power/weight of a regular ACIM is pretty abysmal when
> compared to PMAC for example.
> Lightweight stator/case designs that do exist are not as high-volume
> products and tend to be more expensive, accordingly.
>
> -kert
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
>
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a sweeeet bike. Wish I had one.
You'll probably want to use an etek motor, get it quick, not many around left.
There is a guy who has built eteck 'cycles of these in the Vancouver area,
Jurgen (sp?) who also races them. Check out visforvoltage.net forums. He has
experimented with different voltages, battery sizes, not theoretical
calculations.
Battery balancing will be an issue, past 24 volts. Lower voltages imho is
better, for battery balancing.
Cheers,
Rob
Henry Heng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi guys,
I'm thinking of building an EV bike, but I'm quite confused about how
the mileage, the voltage and the amperage are related. Would anyone mind
explaining it in simpler terms?
I'm looking at a 24-48V motor, top speeds of somewhere between
50-80Km/h, and preferably a range of up to 60Km. I might have to make do
with less, as the bike I'm converting is an NSR 50, which is incredibly
small. I don't know how many batteries I can fit in it yet. I'd just
like to know how I should go about calculating the range and amperage.
thanks,
Henry
Revived Battery EV going up Lions Gate Bridge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ymFIVX9VgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45kPks7UYss
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The tranny & motor sold seperately. Still available. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: An Electravan Shame story
> "With EVerything out of the engine bay there sure
>
> is a lot of room for batteries."
>
>
>
>
>
> Did you remove the gear box?
>
>
>
> -S
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all helpful replies.
In return, I'd like to offer you some free revived alkaline AA batteries! Or,
even CR123A, 2CR5, CRP2 or CR2 for your SLR camera.
Email me (off this forum) your coordinates, and I'll mail 'em -- surface mail
can take up to 8 weeks, depending on where you are.
Cheers,
Rob
JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: joe wrote:
> I have a 1231C manual I could scan, or copy and send you
>
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/Curtis_manual.pdf
Revived Battery EV going up Lions Gate Bridge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ymFIVX9VgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45kPks7UYss
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
Try Newark Electronics: www.newark.com
They have the enclosures by the companies you list. They have enclosures
by Hoffman which is a Polycarbonate NEMA Type 4X that has a internal height
of 15.28 inches, a width of 11.34 inches, and a depth of 4.84 inches, which
is about the closes dimensions you want.
The Stock No. is 91F2277.
Also allow for a chassis plate that is install on the existing standoffs in
this box. Measure you contactor depth plus to see if it fit on top of a
chassis plate and the cover.
You can also try Carlon products which are normally use by electrical
contractors that is available from electrical supply houses. Carlon is the
company that makes all electrical boxes, enclosures, conduit and conduit
fittings in flame resistance polycarbonate plastics.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dutko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
> I'm looking for a ABS or Polyester 10X11X4 approx high box for my
> contactors and relays. Something with a screw top not mote than 5"H.
> Does anyone know of a good source? I've looked at Hoffman, Budd,
> Hammond. Any others? Other suggestions? I don't want to use metal of
> aluminum.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks Jeff
I read this to mean "as long as you get a controller that is built to run a shunt-type motor you are ok" but if you roll
your own you have be careful.
-not rolling my own or smoking it either.
JF
Jeff Major wrote:
John,
I was addressing the issue in general. That is controlling a shunt motor speed by field only. I see Lee has posted his method and overcame some of the issue with a clutch or starting resistor.
Most shunt motor speed controllers are in fact separately excited motor controllers and have two sections, 1.) a PWM field control and 2.) a PWM armature control. These work in conjuction with each other. They usually provide contactorless reversing and regenerative braking. You can use two motors, each with a controller or, if you can get one, a single controller to run two motors.
Hope this answers your question.
Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ditto that question.
I had a look at that site last year and immediately wondered about the
ability to instead make a home made motor the same way.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:51 pm, Tom Watson wrote:
Hi
I was interested to read about NdFeB magnets being used to create a
high power windmill.
http://www.otherpower.com/wisc06.html
The construction of the hub generator especially!
I'm sure a hub motor (or 4 of them)could be built using this method
to give us a motor of appropriate size for each wheel in a
conversion. Is anyone doing this and do any of the motor experts here
have comment's on the technology?
Please! I am not asking about the weight issue with regard to the
problem of increased unsprung weight as that has been discussed to
death already! Only the motor technology.
Thanks
Tom
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go
to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow! Great reply! So sorry I haven't had the time to read it until now.
More comments below.
On 4/11/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Go with the 156 V pack so all the manuf. dates are all the same. Make
sure
when you order the batteries, specific that they will be all the same date
stamp. This forces the dealer to order a pallet load of 50
batteries. Best
to do this now in the spring, so they normally will stock these type of
batteries for golf carts.
Yeah, I just called my Trojan dealer and he is getting a new pallet of
T-145s in tomorrow. Talk about timing! Thanks also for all the great
quality assurance advice [snipped]. I'll definitely follow it closely.
It is best to not have the battery manufacture date not more than 2 weeks
old.
Do you mean more than 2 weeks apart? I doubt I can get them so fresh that
they are less than 2 weeks old from manufacture, but I don't think that's
what you meant. Thanks also for the GREAT warranty replacement and
documentation advice.
Also, it is best to have individual battery caps with a o-ring ring instead
of a gang type of cap. I had gang type caps, and the batteries seem to be
wet on top all the time and the voltage tracking to the other batteries
was
very bad. Could even see arcing between the batteries when the lights
were
off.
Are you talking about the individual caps with the little dual vents in each
(like the old ones I have) vs. the kind with one big long cap with one vent
on one side and one vent on the other? I thought ALL the new Trojans came
with the uni-cap now.
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may be overlooking the whole point. By increasing frequency (RPM) and
load, one is able to increase the output 5 to 10 times the normal 60Hz, TENV
rating of the industrial ACIM. This will bring the power density close to
the PMSM.
Or surpass it in some cases - my Solectria brushless DC's are somewhat heavy
for the same power rating, actually, compared with the newer AC24 Azure
system. The efficiency, however, is a bit better on my BLDC's. There are
many lighter ACIM's offered - aluminum cases, etc.
What is the difference between different ICE's? You have a 350 cid Chevy in
a pickup truck that strains to reach 4000 RPM and sounds like it's coming
apart. Then you have a blueprinted, race-prepped 350 cid Chevy that feels
smooth up to 6000 or 7000 RPM. An ACIM (or any other electric motor, for
that matter) should be easier to balance than a ICE since there are no
reciprocating parts to deal with. How close can a motor rewinding shop
balance a rotor? Can you take it to a hot-rod ICE balance shop? Make sure
they don't drill balancing holes through critical parts of the rotor.... If
it's balanced, the load on the bearings should be pretty light, no? 6000 RPM
motor bearings are no problem to get.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this design will handle the higher RPMs associated with an
EV traction motor........me
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 1:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: NdFeB magnets in motors?
I ditto that question.
I had a look at that site last year and immediately wondered about the
ability to instead make a home made motor the same way.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:51 pm, Tom Watson wrote:
> Hi
> I was interested to read about NdFeB magnets being used to create a
> high power windmill.
> http://www.otherpower.com/wisc06.html
>
> The construction of the hub generator especially!
>
> I'm sure a hub motor (or 4 of them)could be built using this method to
> give us a motor of appropriate size for each wheel in a conversion.
> Is anyone doing this and do any of the motor experts here have
> comment's on the technology?
>
> Please! I am not asking about the weight issue with regard to the
> problem of increased unsprung weight as that has been discussed to
> death already! Only the motor technology.
>
> Thanks
> Tom
>
>
> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go
> to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at
> http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And so now there is more…
While I am changing oil, spark plugs and plug wires on our gasser, Heidi took
Tweety out to the post office, to send copies of “Car and Driver” to family and
some friends, and then to the grocery store. I noticed that she took a little
longer than expected to make the trip. I asked her if everything went ok. She
said she took the long way around and had to talk to a crowd at each stop. She
then continues to explain, with a growing grin. On the way back she got into a
race with a ricer! Guess who won! The ricer caught up with Heidi after she
was stopped at the next light. The same thing happened as in my experience.
At the first light, they are laughing and pointing. At the second light they
are, “What the hell is that!!??? Except in my experience, it wasn’t a race.
They were just surprised at the acceleration. She doesn’t know what the ricer
was, just a small sporty car with a fart can and three adult kids inside.
It just keeps getting better and better…
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 9:18 PM
Subject: Silly Tweety!
Ha Ha! I just love it!
Today, driving home in Tweety, Heidi’s yellow NmG, I pull up next to a Range
Rover stopped at a light. There are three guys in the car who finally notice
the silly looking yellow car. I hear them burst out laughing through the
rolled up windows. They were pointing and laughing – very amused. I just
smiled.
The light turns green and I press it down. Not all of it, just an easy 250
amps. Though 250 amps is far from full go, it still jumps little Tweety way
out front.
Checking the rear view mirror, I see the wild laughing faces suddenly turn to
wide eyed, drop jawed stares…. Now I’m laughing!
Sorry, just can’t help myself.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got mine at Lowes...
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Dutko
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
I'm looking for a ABS or Polyester 10X11X4 approx high box for my
contactors and relays. Something with a screw top not mote than 5"H.
Does anyone know of a good source? I've looked at Hoffman, Budd,
Hammond. Any others? Other suggestions? I don't want to use metal of
aluminum.
Thanks,
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Matt,
When a dealer order a pallet load from the factory, it normally takes two
weeks for the delivery. Have him contact you when they come in.
You can get the batteries with the turn lock caps and any type of post. It
is best to get the battery post with standard post or large lug post. I had
the T-145's with low profile stud, and these could not stand up to the 95 to
105 inch pounds of torque when the battery ampere was over 200 amps. I had
to install gold plated all positive battery clamps that clamp around the
bottom pad, and than use a stainless steel washer, lock washer and nut to
put down ward force on these battery clamps using the top stud with a lead
washers to fill up the void between the bottom of the washer and top of the
low profile pad.
The battery clamp makes contact around the pad and also down on the base of
the link bar.
This type of connection has been holding its torque for about four years
now.
The top stud is handy for connecting a BMS system.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
> Wow! Great reply! So sorry I haven't had the time to read it until now.
> More comments below.
>
> On 4/11/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Go with the 156 V pack so all the manuf. dates are all the same. Make
> > sure
> > when you order the batteries, specific that they will be all the same
> > date
> > stamp. This forces the dealer to order a pallet load of 50
> > batteries. Best
> > to do this now in the spring, so they normally will stock these type of
> > batteries for golf carts.
>
>
> Yeah, I just called my Trojan dealer and he is getting a new pallet of
> T-145s in tomorrow. Talk about timing! Thanks also for all the great
> quality assurance advice [snipped]. I'll definitely follow it closely.
>
>
> It is best to not have the battery manufacture date not more than 2 weeks
> > old.
>
>
> Do you mean more than 2 weeks apart? I doubt I can get them so fresh that
> they are less than 2 weeks old from manufacture, but I don't think that's
> what you meant. Thanks also for the GREAT warranty replacement and
> documentation advice.
>
>
> Also, it is best to have individual battery caps with a o-ring ring
> instead
> > of a gang type of cap. I had gang type caps, and the batteries seem to
> > be
> > wet on top all the time and the voltage tracking to the other batteries
> > was
> > very bad. Could even see arcing between the batteries when the lights
> > were
> > off.
>
>
> Are you talking about the individual caps with the little dual vents in
> each
> (like the old ones I have) vs. the kind with one big long cap with one
> vent
> on one side and one vent on the other? I thought ALL the new Trojans came
> with the uni-cap now.
>
>
> Matt
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the hook up that I use.
Take a 6 conductor RJ12 modular cord and cut off one end. Must be a 6
conductor.
Terminate the cut off end with a female 9 pin D connector as follows.
Holding the connector end with the retaining clip facing you and the cord end
down, the following wires connect to the 9 pin D connector:
Left most wire goes to pin 5
Forth wire from the left goes to pin 3
Right most wire goes to pin 2
No connection to the remaining wires, however, the second wire from the left
has 14 volts on it. Be sure it does not connect to anything.
Set you RS232 communication program to 9600 baud, no parity, 8 bits, 1 stop, no
Xon/Xoff, no RTS, no CTS, no flow control.
Hope that helps!
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Hooking up zilla to laptop
In a message dated 4/15/07 3:10:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: RE: Hooking up zilla to laptop
Date: 4/15/07 3:10:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Willmon)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
It helps if I give you the link to look at.
Google for DB9F-RJ11/12 Modular Adaptor brings up:
http://www.wiretester.com/db9frj11f.html
$0.79 ea
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:52 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Hooking up zilla to laptop
> >>
YES I do have that adaptor and I have had it connected to my laptop
already.But I cannot get my laptop responding. Dennis </HTML>
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/11/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nice looking truck; please don't stuff batteries under the hood and
destroy the clean, empty look! ;^>
Thanks! I've often thought the same thing, especially since I'd like to use
the truck for advocacy, but I'm also swayed by the argument that you get
better balance (and thus handling) with batteries up front. After all, the
vehicle was designed to have a big heavy engine up there. Not doing
anything is the simplest option, but maybe I can figure out a way to get the
six new (I think I will go with 156V) batteries in there with an impressive
lift or something to show what's below.
What sort of range do you need? You mention that at present you're up
to about 4mi from the present pack, and hope/plan to use the vehicle to
commute eventually, but don't mention what range you need to make that
commute.
Sorry, thought I had updated the page (I have now). My commute is about 21
miles (about to go down to 18) plus I've discovered I really need an
additional five to eight miles in case the wife asks me to pick up our
daughter from school. That brings us up to 26 hilly miles. In order to
never go below 75% DoD, I need at least a 34 mile total range.
I think you need to rethink your upgrade budget; if you go up to 156V,
you must replace the controller and charger (I don't think the BC20 can
make the stretch up to 156V), and probably the Sevcon DC/DC also (hope
you noted the specs off the label before the seller cleaned it ;^).
There really isn't any point replacing the controller with anything but
a Zilla (your only other option is a new "DCP" Raptor 1200), and a Z1K
LV runs about $2k, and since it tops out at 156V you'd probably be wise
to go for the HV (up to 300V) model instead which pushes the controller
cost to just over $2.5k.
Well, the wife just approved a Zilla, so does anyone have a used one they
want to sell me? If so, email me directly right away. If not (and I doubt
anyone does) I figured I'd get on the waiting list and hold off on buying
the other components until it comes in.
The lead time for a Zilla is about 6months, so if you're ready to buy
batteries now either you will have to hold off on the voltage upgrade or
buy a DCP controller instead (bearing in mind that it tops out at 156V
so if you later decide you want just a "bit" more performance you'll be
selling it to buy that Zilla anyway ;^).
With controllers always being in demand, that's not necessarily a bad
option. Do the DCP-1200s have any other negatives? Other than the quicker
lead time (and slightly lower cost) do they have any added advantages that
are worth noting?
I'd suggest that you buy the entire pack at the same time, and use the
entire pack (i.e. don't buy 120V now and add 36V later or buy 156V now
and only run 120V for 6mo while you wait for a new controller).
Now we get to the meat of what I'm wondering about. Do I just swap six
batteries in and out every so often to keep the pack "together"?
Whether you go with AGMs or not, your vehicle performance will benefit
from either a DCP or Zilla controller. With either you can limit the
battery current to protect floodies without sacrificing the much
improved low speed torque that these higher (motor) current controllers
offer.
That's interesting to note. Given that I really want range over
acceleration, should I give up on the idea of AGMs for now? It would be
cheaper and I wouldn't have to buy (or make) regs.
Of course, if you are only getting 4mi from your present pack of T125s,
then even with the Curtis you should notice a significant performance
improvement just by installing a fresh pack.
I'm counting on that. :)
The floodeds are heavy and take up a fair amount of real estate; from
the sounds of it, your present pack probably consumes your entire pickup
box. If you don't need the range that a 6V flooded pack would offer
(probably about 30-40mi), then a set of 12V batteries would lighten the
vehicle and allow you to move the battery weight to just behind the cab
for better handling.
Is it really an either-or? Would two strings or one buddy-paired string of
12V batteries be worthwhile or is that just silly, given the
price/performance ratio of the 6V floodies? I do need the 30-40mi range. I
might be willing to pay a premium for something that gets me the range along
with better performance. I don't really mind sacrificing more of the bed,
either (I currently fill about half of it), although I am concerned about
the old suspension system. I'll have that looked at to make sure I'm not
inviting trouble.
[great advice about AGMs, Optimas, regs, etc. snipped]
Should you switch to AGMs, you *may* be able to continue using your
present charger, but would definitely need to add Rudman regs to protect
the batteries. The Mk2B lists for $45/ea, so $450 for a 120V pack (10x
12V). If you decided to upgrade the charger now also, your $2k budget
would allow for a PFC20 and the regs.
Yeah, I'm thinking a new, smarter charger is absolutely needed since I
already proved I could ruin a pack with a dumb charger. I was thinking if I
go AGM I'd use Lee's Zener Regs. I'm also considering (again) beefing up
the budget and getting Lee's BMS.
Assuming your range requirement doesn't require lugging a full set of 6V
floodies around, I'd replace the pack with a lighter 120V set of flooded
12Vers and get on the Z1k waiting list. When this set wears out/dies
you could replace it with a set of AGMs to take more advantage of the
performance available with the Z1k, or with another set of 6V or 12V
floodies if you find that range is more of an issue than performance
once you see what the truck does with a healthy set of batteries.
I think you're on the money here, although I'll have to start with the
floodies for range -- assuming I can't (or shouldn't) do something funky
with 12V batteries. If I can't get a Zilla right away (or a good deal on a
used Raptor or Kodiak), I'll get on the waiting list and save up my nickels
for the next pack. Driving roughly 120 miles a week, I'll go probably go
through the new pack in about three years. Hopefully by then I'll have
built my next EV. :)
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/16/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When a dealer order a pallet load from the factory, it normally takes two
weeks for the delivery. Have him contact you when they come in.
Ah, that makes sense. I certainly hope this load is coming from the
factory and not a warehouse.
You can get the batteries with the turn lock caps and any type of post.
I'll ask about the turn lock caps, although my experience with the unicaps
has been very positive so far. It's nice to be able to open three cells at
a time. With the new batteries, though, I don't expect I'll have to water
nearly as much as I have been (the bed of my truck is littered with gallon
jugs right now). What do the rest of you think?
It is best to get the battery post with standard post or large lug post. I
had
the T-145's with low profile stud, and these could not stand up to the 95
to
105 inch pounds of torque when the battery ampere was over 200 amps.
Thanks, very useful info. The load he has coming have Universal Terminal
(UT) posts, which is what my current pack has, so I can use my existing
cabling. I will probably want to review and replace a few of my cables. I
had a bunch with a good bit of corrosion but about a month ago I washed them
all in a baking soda bath and used a dish scrubber with plastic bristles to
get all of that off the terminals. There are a couple of cables that I
suspect have some corrosion under the shrink-wrap, so I'll see if I can
clean all that up too before putting the new batteries in. I'd also like to
make new battery boxes, too.
The top stud is handy for connecting a BMS system.
Is it easy to do that with the UT posts, too?
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
If you don't have your own copy of WKtEC?? Ya mean ya DON'T??Fix that
RIGHT NOW! Netflix is selling them, used for $8.47 out their door, shipped!
Just ordered another copy. I like having a few around, ya never
know?Inconvenient Truth is in there, too.
I just got a E mail thing from Net flix, as I'm a member. The TV set is
good for SOMETHING!Watching ad free movies.
Be Scene ya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt Kenigson wrote:
> > Nice looking truck; please don't stuff batteries under the hood and
> > destroy the clean, empty look! ;^>
>
> Thanks! I've often thought the same thing, especially since
> I'd like to use the truck for advocacy, but I'm also swayed
> by the argument that you get better balance (and thus handling)
> with batteries up front.
> After all, the vehicle was designed to have a big heavy engine
> up there.
Are you sure? After all, this is a small truck and may only have been
available with a 4 or small 6 under the hood. DC motors are small, but
they are deceptively heavy; your 9" is going to be about 140-150lbs.
Factor in the charger, controller, DC/DC, etc. and you might be up to
about 200lbs of EV stuff under the hood in place of the ICE stuff. At
60-70lbs each for a flooded 6V, it probably wouldn't take but one of two
to have you over the original load on the front end...
> In order to never go below 75% DoD, I need at least a 34 mile
> total range.
OK; so if we WAG 300Wh/mi, then you need about 10.2kWh of energy onboard
(100%DOD). At 120V, this requires about 85Ah, at 156V it requires just
65Ah.
The T1275 or J150 12V floodeds could still be an option for you if you
go to 156V. As I recall, the T1275 is spec'd at 70Ah at the 1hr rate.
T105/US2200 size 6V floodeds are good for roughly 2x this, so you should
definitely be safe with them.
> With controllers always being in demand, that's not necessarily a bad
> option. Do the DCP-1200s have any other negatives? Other
> than the quicker lead time (and slightly lower cost) do they
> have any added advantages that are worth noting?
Slightly *lower* cost? The only listing I've seen for a DCP1200 is
KTA's site, and it was priced about $2250 vs $1950 for a Z1K LV.
My caution with respect to the DCP1200 is that as far as I'm concerned
it is an unknown quantity. I don't believe it is the same controller
that was originally made by the guys at DCP (now AllTrax) and while this
controller bears the same name as the original I don't believe it has
yet been proven in any racing or high-perfromance street machines like
the original. Caveat emptor.
> Now we get to the meat of what I'm wondering about. Do I
> just swap six batteries in and out every so often to keep
> the pack "together"?
If you are determined to stick with floodies for the new pack, I would
suggest sticking with 120V until the next pack replacement. Install
120V of your preferred 6V floodies and you will have enough range for
your needs and better performance with the Curtis than you've had
previously.
Get yourself an E-Meter/Link-10 and monitor your energy usage (kWh) with
this setup so that when the pack dies or the Z1K arrives, etc., you will
know just how much energy you really need onboard so you know what your
options are for he next battery pack.
When you get the Z1K, you'll have even more performance, and if you
haven't built yourself a new EV by the time this pack wears out, you can
install 156V of whatever at that time. If you have built yourself
another EV, you'll probably have pulled the Z1K to put in it, and put
the Curtis back in the pickup for the next owner... Might be an argument
for springing for the Z1K HV instead of the LV, just in case you get the
urge to go higher than 156V for the new EV.
> That's interesting to note. Given that I really want range over
> acceleration, should I give up on the idea of AGMs for now?
> It would be cheaper and I wouldn't have to buy (or make) regs.
This is probably wise, since you really don't know what your energy
usage/requirements are yet. If you are using relatively high currents
routinely, AGMs can come into their own rangewise, but guessing 300Wh/mi
you would need group 31s or a bit larger to get the energy storage.
Once you have a better idea of how much energy you really need, and what
performance a set of healthy floodies gives, you'll be in a much better
position to decide if it makes sense to go with AGMs for the next pack
(or the next vehicle).
> Is it really an either-or? Would two strings or one
> buddy-paired string of 12V batteries be worthwhile or
> is that just silly, given the price/performance ratio
> of the 6V floodies?
It's just silly ;^>
With the 12V floodies I am suggesting (T1275/J150) two in parallel yield
a battery equivalent to a pair of 6V T105s in series, and odds are it is
cheaper to buy the T105s instead if you are buyign the same number of
batteries anyway.
If a single string of the 12Vers could satisfy your energy needs, then
you'd come out lighter and cheaper than the 6V floodies since you'd buy
1/2 as many batteries.
> Yeah, I'm thinking a new, smarter charger is absolutely needed
> since I already proved I could ruin a pack with a dumb charger.
I must have missed that post. If you stick with floodies, I would
expect your present charger to do OK unless it is defective.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
